Realization that PCGS slabs counterfeits - Scary

tjkillian

Does it bother anyone else that PCGS authenticated 95 separate counterfeits? If the counterfeits were so good in the early 20th century to fool virtually everyone, what can they do today? Sure, we have auction catalogs going back over a hundred years for a pedigree, but what about folks who counterfeit the whole coin/slab combo? Who would know unless you see all the coins at once? I remember Cardinal and his countfeit small eagle half dollar that fooled folks for fifty years. If too many counterfeits come to market, it could bankrupt PCGS and then we'd all be holding the bag. It is not the cheap Chinese counterfeits that bother me, it is the good ones that can fool the best, again and again, and again....

Tom

kranky

Well, they honor their guarantee, right? That's what gives people confidence to buy PCGS coins. I'm sure that the counterfeiters are trying to improve their craft, but at the same time PCGS tries to bring the best talent to the grading room. I think it's a lot harder than it might seem to be able to make fakes that are so good they fool experts for fifty years.

mercurynut

95 versus 10 million graded. I feel ok with it!

BAJJERFAN

Up until now there was no reason to believe/suspect that the coins were c/f. When you get several at a time and maybe notice that they all have identical reverses you start to wonder. Since this will cost PCGS money up front its hard to believe that thay did it knowingly. Hopefully the goodwill they get back in return will more than offsetthe cost to them.

dorkkarl

i have zero coins in slabs & don't ever intend to own any, BUT, the authentication guarantee by plastic co's is a very compelling benefit, ie. the only real benefit i see from slabing. if anything, you should be congratulating pcgs on the OUTSTANDING job they did of publicizing this discovery & stepping up to the plate. they've done an admirable job of handling this situation. it remains to be seen whether the other plastic co's will step up as pcgs has done.

more pcgs for me!!!

K S

zzzz

Chicken Little....

What would bother me more is if they found out and said nothing ...

BUT ... If it bothers you that much If I were you I'd just get out of coins.

ddink

If someone else had discovered they were counterfeits, it would have been a terrible blow to PCGS' prestige. Since they themselves conducted the investigation and made it public, even at a cost of who-knows-how-much-money, I think it greatly enhances PCGS' reputation for fairness and integrity. The fact that they are "policing" their work in-house reassures me greatly. They don't just stick a coin in some plastic and forget about it.

greghansen

even at a cost of who-knows-how-much-money,

Just out of curiosity I was trying to get my arms around this figure. If they certified about 100 coins in an average grade of VF, even if every single one got turned in, we're talking something under $200,000. I'm sure they've calculated the possible cost down to the penny and I'm sure they have no plans to share that with the collecting public...nor would I if I were in their place. Not chicken feed to be sure, but certainly not the cost that would have been experienced if they hadn't made the discovery and acted promptly. Whoever started this investigation at PCGS and got the ball rolling...earned their paycheck bigtime that day!

Far from making me suspect of PCGS because the slab coins later found to be counterfeit, I agree with those that this discovery enhances my trust and faith in their long term mission.

Mark

I don't know the NGC website as well as others, so let me ask: Has NGC encapsulated any of these coins? I presume they, too, will step up t the plate and pay off if they have. I wonder about ANACS, ICG, and the others..have they encapsulated these coins?

Mark

TonedPeaceNut

I'm sure PCGS has a reinsurer or primary carrier to provide payouts on any claims above a certain amount. I doubt highly that a publicly traded corporation run by some of the brightest minds in the business didnt go out and get a policy long ago for just such a situation. I'm sure PCGS is just fine with paying out $200,000. Though I wouldnt expect the insurance to kick in until their deductible is met. And I'd venture to guess a $250,000 to $300,000 deductible is probably what they have.



<< <i>If the counterfeits were so good in the early 20th century to fool virtually everyone, what can they do today? >>



Laser gold, move metal, artificially tone coins brillant rainbow colors, artificially frost coins, ect., The world should be a scary place for all TPGs today. Technology has been utilized by those that want to fool the services, but for the most part, the TPGs are still grading coins as they did 20 years ago -- with a human sitting next to a lamp looking through a loupe. Not to say that PCGS or NGC isn't catching most of the problem coins, but there has certainly been a vast improvement in how others try to deceive the TPGs.


TPN

nwcs

<< <i>95 versus 10 million graded. I feel ok with it! >>

Same here

nwcs

NGC has already removed the coins from their census. I'd say they'll be doing the same as PCGS and I would expect ANACS to do the same.

PerryHall

Does anyone know how many of these coins that NGC and ANACS have slabbed? This would give us some idea of their liability.

DMWJR

PCGS obviously did the right thing. However, I don't feel that there will be rush to turn them in. I'm keeping mine anyway, and would if they were in PCGS holders. I think a lot of other collectors will do the same. It' the closest I will come to owning a coin made by a "midnight minter" so to speak. To me, it is different than getting stuck with a fake trade dollar.

dorkkarl

that's for danged sure - if i had 1 of these fakes, i'd keep it big time!

K S

topstuf

Um.....I guess I'm late to the party. WHICH specific coins are being discussed?

Myqqy

more pcgs for me!!!

Dorkkarl is finally seeing the light!!

northcoin

Anyone interested in this topic should pick up Charles Larson's new book titled, Numismatic Forgery. In the preface he quotes convicted master forger Mark Hofmann who stated, "If I can produce something so correctly, so perfect that the experts declare it to be genuine, There is no fraud involved when I sell it."

coinkat

the story with the 1896, 1900 and 1902 -o micro o varieties are different. These varieties have been legendary, rare, and have earned their own place in numismatic history.

RobJoyce1921dVAMguy

They did the right thing. They investigated, made it public and stood by their past. You can't get -any- better than that. I've got an 1896 Micro O in another service's EF-40 holder. They're not going to do anything. PCGS is a class act.

Rob

Monstavet

I think there is some chance that these could now become even more valuable for their notoriety as such superb fakes. I think most people will keep theirs. Hats off to PCGS for a fascinating investigation, the cohones to reveal the truth, and to stand by their guarantee.

ziggy29

Nobody's perfect. They have a pretty darned good record and they clearly make good on their promises. That's all you can reasonably ask.