Will Frank Howard ever make the Hall of Fame?

coinkat

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, should the Washington Monument ever get into the Hall of Fame? He was rookie of the year with the Dodgers in 1960, played in the 1963 World Series. He hit over 3O homers with the Dodgers in either the 1962 or 63 season. He was then traded to Washington (btw Gil Hodges played there to for while...) where he lead the league in Homers in 1968 and 1970. Lead the AL in RBI'S in 1970. I think he had 382 lifetime HR'S... and was well known for the distance of his HR's. I know I saw one in Anaheim Stadium in 1969 that about 500 ft.

Axtell

Another case of a solid player, but never being the overwhelming, dominant player that a HoF should be.

coinkat

Dominant? I agree he wasn't dominant, but I just have this feeling if a poll where taken among American League Pitchers between 1966 and 1971, he would be on everyone's top 5 list as a batter they would not want to face. Perhaps the same can be said of National League pitchers in the 1960-64 timeframe, but only if you extend the number to 10.

HoF candidate? He probably will not make it... however, he if stayed with the Dodgers or played on a pennant contender in the AL, he would already be there.

Griffins

Not a prayer. Too bad, he was just massive and had a few years that were incredible. He was my dads favorite player when he first moved to this country, and he always talked about him.
In '83 I was photographing a celebrity softball game for MS. I was shooting from the 3rd base coaches box, and Hondo hit a brutal line drive that cut my legs out from under me, knocking me flat on my face. He ran over and picked me up (I'm 6'1 and felt totally dwarfed) apologizing and making sure I was ok. Nicest guy in the ball park.
Oh yeah, next pitch ( it was hi arc ball) he hit it about 800 feet. It may still be rising.

Skinpinch

Without question, the most dominant player who is not in the Hall of Fame is Dick Allen! Check out his OPS+ finishes....1,1,1,2,2,3,5,5,7. He retired at age 35. That is remarkable dominance from a batter, and that is certainly Hall of Fame worthy, far more Hall of Fame worthy than Tony Perez, Kirby Puckett, or Paul Molitor.

It is baffling how someone like him doesn't even sniff the Hall, and somebody like Palmeiro(or is it Harold Baines, I forget because of the similarity ), will get in because they simply played longer and were never remotely the best hitter in the league.

Guys like Jim Rice get credit for being dominant, but he wasn't nearly as dominant as people think, and he was very Fenway aided. Allen is a guy that was truly short changed and should be campaigning.

Gemmy10

Yeah, Dick was a true RBI machine....only three 100+ years.

Axtell

<< <i>Yeah, Dick was a true RBI machine....only three 100+ years. >>



Because RBIs are such a mark of a good hitter, right spammy? Hell, all it means is that those in front of him didn't get on base.

God your ignorance frightens me spammy. Look at those OPS finishes!

Skinpinch

RBI can be VERY misleading take for example these two years from Tony Perez and Dick Allen.

Perez had 109 RBI, and Allen 113. On the surface it looks like a virtual tie. However, when you look deeper it isn't even close...

Tony Perez had 295 at bats with men on base and 217 at bats with Runners in Scoring Position(RISP)
Dick Allen ...had 226 at bats with men on base and 117 at bats with Runners in Scoring Position(RISP).


Tony Perez's 100 RBI were merely a product of his lineup. GIven a neutral lineup giving him 160 at bats with RISP, he doesn't get 100 RBI.

Perez batted .308 and slugged .512 with Men on, and batted .286 and slugged .484 with RISP. So it is clearly a case of a guy getting 100 RBI because of his lineup. TONY PEREZ HAD 100 MORE AT BATS WITH RISP THAN ALLEN, yet he only was four RBI behind. He wasn't exceptional with his men on hitting. Credit his teammates and good fortune for his 109 RBI that year.

Allen batted .350 and slugged .724 with Men ON, and batted .316 and slugged .624 with RISP. His RBI were clearly a product of a superb job of hitting. With 100 less at bats with RISP, it took a herculian effort to get four more RBI than Perez's total, but credit Allen with superb hitting for his 113 RBI.

Now, this stuff gets very complicated, and you can do this complicated exercise all the time(And this is a very short version) if you want to include RBI in your study. BUT you can get the correct answer 90% of the time just by checking their AVG, OB%, SLG%, and OPS.

In this case all you have to do is look at Allen's 1.023 OPS and compare it to Perez's .816 OPS, and you side step all this.

P.S. Most of the time the Men on Hitting and such isn't much a factor between guys. You have guys Like Eddie Murray, and Keith Hernandez where their hitting is exceptionally well with men on, and a few guys who are mediocore, and then it does make a difference. But it is not a good idea to use RBI as a benchmark unless you know all the men on stats.

Actually, Allen was mediocore with men on for his years where the numbers are kept, although that is only half of his years. This information is impossible to come by for most of the years in history. Usually 1969 to present you can find it.

Allen also gets a downgrade for his hitting because it was rarely a full season worth of at bats, so he loses some yearly value even though his percentages are high. That is probably what keeps him out of the Hall, asided from his early quits.

stevek

In another thread you said Gil Hodges and now Frank Howard - both not even close. You are confusing "excellent" players with "great" players. Hodges and Howard were excellent players, not great.

Gemmy10

<<God your ignorance frightens me spammy. Look at those OPS finishes!>>

Axtell Rose,

While OPS is a fairly accurate measure of offensive value, it underrates the value of on base percentage. For example, a team that always walked (OBP: 1.000, SLG: .000) would have the same OPS as a team who hit a triple every four at-bats (OBP: .250, SLG: .750). The first team scores an infinite amount of runs, while the latter does not.

P.S. Were you in the movie Anger Management?

Skinpinch

OPS+ is an accurate measure. It isn't the best, but it is close enough to the best that the ease of which to use it makes a perfect stat for discussions like these. Linear Weights are numero uno, but that takes a lot more computation. But for the most part, the guy who is best in Linear Weights will be best in OPS+ as well.

Cubfan

It doesnt really matter. Neither Howard, or Allen, or Munson, or Mattingly will make it.

Axtell

Spammy....

Nice way to dodge the question. Because as you know, there are teams that do indeed walk all the time, and triples are oh so common.

OPS is widely regarded as the single best statistic for judging a batter's value to a team. It disregards all other influences (runs scored, RBI, etc) and focuses solely on the hitter's ability.

And no Spamyboy, I don't have anger issues, but your inability to grasp even the simplest concepts and then dodge them entirely when called on it is simply amazing!

sagard

<< <i>
And no Spamyboy, I don't have anger issues, but your inability to grasp even the simplest concepts and then dodge them entirely when called on it is simply amazing! >>



Come on. You know it's really Yankee mistique that win games right?

marz

<< <i>Not a prayer. Too bad, he was just massive and had a few years that were incredible. He was my dads favorite player when he first moved to this country, and he always talked about him.
In '83 I was photographing a celebrity softball game for MS. I was shooting from the 3rd base coaches box, and Hondo hit a brutal line drive that cut my legs out from under me, knocking me flat on my face. He ran over and picked me up (I'm 6'1 and felt totally dwarfed) apologizing and making sure I was ok. Nicest guy in the ball park.
Oh yeah, next pitch ( it was hi arc ball) he hit it about 800 feet. It may still be rising. >>



nice story! How much is the children's portrait package?

WinPitcher

quote: 1 . He was then traded to Washington (btw Gil Hodges played there to for while...)

Hodges never played for Washington, he did however manage them.


Howard in the hall? no great guy though, met him while he was a coach for the yankees.

DirtyHarry

Frank Howard was a goliath sized player (in his time), hit some monsterous shots for The Senators (the seats are still painted in the upper deck.... where The Nationals now play) and a fan favorite due to his gentle giant demeanor. But...does not have HOF stature or credentials. He was a great asset to the game as both a player and coach.

Oh, almost forgot........Axtell and Gemmy......

coinkat

Perhaps there is more to baseball than stats and Frank Howard maybe one of the better candidates from the 1960's and early 70's that represents that sportsmanship and demeanor as a player counts for something.

IrishMike

I had the pleasure of seeing Frank play in person and no I wouldn't vote him in. He is the archtypical one skill player. We were sitting in old Comiskey Park one Sunday when Aurelio Rodriguez blasted a home run just to the right of us. My brother said next one he would catch. Frank hit a line drive at us, I grabbed my brother who was reaching out to catch it and pulled him away. Frank hit it so hard that it shattered the back of a seat 3 rows behind us. I have never seen a baseball hit that hard before or since. My brother and I still laff about that incident for surely it would have broken his hand.

Treetop

I know I saw one in Anaheim Stadium in 1969 that about 500 ft.

Coinkat,

Was that the one he hit off Andy Messersmith? After Messersmith struck him out twice and Frank had actually tripped over first base during warm ups?

The fans were really on Frank that night and he hit a 500 ft shot that wasn't more than 20 feet off the ground. I'll always remember that game.

coinkat

It was in late June or July of 1969. Andy may have been pitching that night. The Senators fell behind 6-0 and ralied for 8 runs in the top of the sixth. Howard's shot was a 2 run HR if I recall correctly. I think Mike Epstein hit a home run in the ninth to win 9-8.

DirtyHarry

That's nice. Thanks for sharing.

coinkat

Irishmike:

Great story. 30 years later it is great to hear an eye witness account from Comisky about one of the legendary home runs... I heard that story before but not from someone who saw it and I know it is highly unlikely that Howard will ever make it to the Hall. But no one can ever change the stories associated with his home runs.

markglicker

Man carried an awfully big stick.