BVG 9 = PSA "altered"

jrdolan · April 19, 2005 11:35PM

So I've been rather a consistent critic of BGS and especially BCCG, which I regard as being not much higher on the credibility ladder than PRO -- though I do give Beckett points for acknowledging BCCG 9 is equal to PSA 7 NM and BCCG 7 is equal to PSA 3 VG.

But I was always a defender of BVG, the vintage arm of Beckett grading. Until now, I never had a problem with BVG. I would sometimes lose a half-point or even a full point in crossing to PSA, but that was expected and accounted for when I placed my bids. I would be very happy indeed when a BVG 8 would cross to PSA 8. I thought well of BVG, viewing it as a cheap and reliable source of crossover material. Until now.

I bought a 1972 Bench BVG 9 with three 9.5 subgrades. The surface subgrade was 8.5, but had no problems that I could see. I cracked it out, thinking with three 9.5 subgrades it was just possible it would earn a PSA 10, but 9 at the worst. Well, PSA just posted the grade: "Not holdered: Altered"

Now I fully expect that BGS and certainly BCCG grades trimmed cards. That's their reputation, and I discovered painfully that it was true. But I always thought better of BVG, which claims to use a different team of graders for vintage material. This doctored card was a smidgen of gloss away from being a 9.5 in BVG's eyes. Another illusion shattered. I paid far less than a PSA 9 would have cost, but still an expensive lesson.

Southsider · April 19, 2005 11:39PM

Sheet cut, very likely.

jrdolan · April 20, 2005 12:44AM

Well, grading sheet cards is certainly on the Beckett rap sheet as well. I just never thought of a '72 being cut from a sheet. What's the giveaway on a sheet-cut card?

ajw · April 20, 2005 12:54AM

Or, either BVG or PSA got it wrong. Remeasure and resubmit.

ctsoxfan · April 20, 2005 1:00AM

<< But I always thought better of BVG, which claims to use a different team of graders for vintage material. >>

packman · April 20, 2005 1:09AM

The give away that the card is probably sheet cut is when the surface sub-grade is the lowest of the four sub-grades. I imagine that it would not be difficult to have a printing company cut the sheet to produce razor sharp edges and corners and perfect centering. That is a product of technology. However, the surface for a sheet is often scratched or slightly marked due to storage capabilities. In your case, since the other sub-grades were 9.5 and the surface sub-grade was 8.5, I would tend to side with PSA.

sagard · April 20, 2005 1:16AM

Send it back to BVG. The will likely grade it again and chalk it up as a learning experience. Sheet cut cards are OK to Beckett and the people who collect BVG cards. Some people like sharp corners and centering, this sounds like a card for them.

smallstocks · April 20, 2005 1:27AM

Excuse my ignorance, but if a card isn't sheet cut, what is it made/cut from?

Mike

packman · April 20, 2005 2:03AM

Mike

The issue is whether the sheet was cut by the card company at the time the cards were produced or by an individual in the after-market. Some collectors due not see why it matters. However, most collectors believe that the after-market cutting of a sheet is akin to trimming/altering a card.

David

Vincecarder · April 20, 2005 2:03AM

Send it back to BVG...you might get the 9.5. Either that or send it back with the BVG slip to get reholdered. At least that way you can relist the card and get your money back. I still think BVG is good for cross overs...don't let one card scare you. I've cracked out PSA cards and resubmitted and got "Not holdered: Altered" and "Not holdered: mini-size"....yea both of those beauties on modern cards that I saw with my own eyes pulled from packs. Graders get stuff wrong as well...just keep on resubmitting and eventually a grader will give you a grade you like lol....

BigRedMachine · April 20, 2005 2:10AM

I thought I just read the thread where someone pulled Jeter and Arod SP's out of a pack themselves, sent it to PSA, and it came back the same way? Is it possible PSA isn't as "perfect" as we all think and they are to blame? I've got 100 PSA graded cards and 0 of any other grading company so I'm certainly not defending BVG, but how are we sure PSA isn't wrong again?

mikeschmidt · April 20, 2005 2:24AM

PSA does make mistakes - but BGS and BVG do grade sheet-cut cards. I have seen hundreds of examples that are all the same way. Low surface subgrade. Almost any baseball OPC card from the 1970s - 1980s graded by BVG at 9.0 or better is sheet cut. This is a fact - and I own some as evidence. Plus, I know some dealers who have admitted as such to me.

Brian48 · April 20, 2005 4:37AM

I would resubmit again. My recent experience with BGS/BVG has been very different. Despite all the stories I've heard, they have been VERY strict in grading my submissions. BVG sent back two cards ungraded because of suspected trimming. I subsequently sent them to PSA and they came back as PSA 8 and PSA 7 respectively.

I mentioned this in a previous thread I posted.

This is unconfirmed, but I heard that BGS/BVG had fired and hired a bunch of people sometime last year, either during or after the company buy out. This may explain why my recent experience with them is so different from everyone elses'.

rayny1 · April 20, 2005 7:42AM

I think beckett is the top of the line in grading. PSA is overrated and I clearly see PSA 9`s(MINT)that are so off centered it`s amazing people even sent these cards in and wasted the money on them to be graded. Although PSA 9 is not a bad score to take that chance.

Fletch1750 · April 20, 2005 9:42AM

Raymy your crazy BVG is a terrible service. They have the hobbys most read maazine which is the only reason people buy thier product. The amount of severly altered cards in their holders is awesome. There are only 2 reputable services PSA and SGC. In my opinion the rest are sewers for the rejects and for inflated grades.

rayny1 · April 20, 2005 9:57AM

well I`m going on my own personal judgement. I don`t know much about BVG, but BGS seems to be the most stringest on grading cards. Again, only by my personal judgement. I`ve seen some PSA 9 cards, and even 10`s, that really should not be the grade they gave it. Thats why I was wondering why people even bothered sending in some of those cards I`ve observed. There is no way a card that are off centered like the ones I`ve seen getting a MINT grading. PSA 9 is one flaw away from GEM MINT. Some of these were so obvious on the centering I personally wouldn`t have graded them any higher than 7, maybe an 8 if it was the only flaw.

Stone193 · April 20, 2005 11:45AM

<< Is it possible PSA isn't as "perfect" as we all think and they are to blame? >>

Why do people constantly challenge PSA. What you see is what you deserve! If they say the card has been trimmed, the card has been trimmed!

It's like if the President says there are WMD's, then there ARE WMD's! If the President says the cards are trimmed, then the card ARE trimmed!

jrdolan · April 20, 2005 11:52AM

PSA doesn't allow you to trim the card to improve the centering. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

And I say this despite being steamed at PSA for saying my BVG 9 is "altered." Reality bites, as they say.

Mike, did you drink some of dabighurt's Kool-Aid?

Ahmanfan · April 20, 2005 12:13PM

I'm assuming (hoping) it was a sarcastic statement.

John

DaBigHurt · April 20, 2005 12:15PM

<< 

<< Is it possible PSA isn't as "perfect" as we all think and they are to blame? >>

Why do people constantly challenge PSA. What you see is what you deserve! If they say the card has been trimmed, the card has been trimmed!

It's like if the President says there are WMD's, then there ARE WMD's! If the President says the cards are trimmed, then the card ARE trimmed!

>>

*highfives Stone*

EagleEyeKid · April 20, 2005 12:16PM

Mike, did you drink some of dabighurt's Kool-Aid?

Oh no, Mike's sniffing glue or something.
There was something in that Kool-Aid.

SDavid · April 20, 2005 1:16PM

Beckett openly admits to grading sheet cut cards. I've emailed them about this before. If you send it back to them, I'm sure they will grade it...possibly higher.

As far as trimming is concerned, every major "suspected" card doctor that has been cussed and discussed on this forum has had success submitting cards to the major companies, getting a fair amount rejected, and getting high grades on the rest. None of them are perfect.

ctsoxfan · April 20, 2005 3:15PM

Mike - you alright?

jrdolan · April 20, 2005 10:44PM

<< PSA doesn't allow you to trim the card to improve the centering. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I'm assuming (hoping) it was a sarcastic statement. >>

Sure it was sarcasm. Some Beckett fans hammer PSA's centering standard, but don't mind too much that a perfectly-centered BGS card might have been trimmed that way, or lasered off a sheet a week ago. Me, I'd rather have a 53/47 that hasn't been sliced into a 51/49.

CDsNuts · April 20, 2005 11:33PM

If the sheet cutters were smart they'd sell their cards raw with huge up close scans rather than submitting them to BVG and getting a low surface grade making it clear to everybody that the card came from a sheet. I think they'd get more from people who would buy the card hoping to get a high PSA grade, especially for the ones that would probably come back 9s from BVG. There's a lot of people out there looking to buy high grade raw cards.

Lee

Stone193 · April 21, 2005 9:36AM

<< 

<< Is it possible PSA isn't as "perfect" as we all think and they are to blame? >>

Why do people constantly challenge PSA. What you see is what you deserve! If they say the card has been trimmed, the card has been trimmed!

It's like if the President says there are WMD's, then there ARE WMD's! If the President says the cards are trimmed, then the card ARE trimmed!

>>

Just a little "irony" guys - I can't let DaBig have all the fun!

mike

Ahmanfan · April 21, 2005 10:44AM

<< 

<< PSA doesn't allow you to trim the card to improve the centering. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I'm assuming (hoping) it was a sarcastic statement. >>

Sure it was sarcasm. Some Beckett fans hammer PSA's centering standard, but don't mind too much that a perfectly-centered BGS card might have been trimmed that way, or lasered off a sheet a week ago. Me, I'd rather have a 53/47 that hasn't been sliced into a 51/49. >>

I agree with you. I was referring to the post 2 posts before mine about the trimming and WMD's.

Stone193 · April 21, 2005 12:32PM

<< I agree with you. I was referring to the post 2 posts before mine about the trimming and WMD's >>

John
Of course it was. I was doing it for DaBig - just having a little fun with him. If you notice, my icon is back to the "rocks" in my head!

baseballfanatic · April 21, 2005 1:00PM

I believe it was William Shakespeare who said "A Beckett by any other name is still a Beckett"............

BVG 9 = PSA &quot;altered&quot;

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BVG 9 = PSA "altered"