Cameo/Deep Cameo - Definition Question - Please HELP !!!

TheRock

OK, I seem to be having a problem determining what exactly a CAMEO or DEEP CAMEO is. The question is really about what is the definition or requirements of any coin to make a grade of CAMEO or DEEP CAMEO. I collect Lincolns and even after buying a ton of them that are CAM or DCAM, I still seem to have a major problem looking at a RAW coin to determine if it is CAM/DCAM.

1 - Is it the mirror like surface on the field of the Obverse and Reverse that makes the coin a CAM/DCAM
or
2 - Is it the frost on the Obverse and Reverse of the image (is. Lincoln Face and Memorial)

Please help me out here. I have fun seeking RAW, but I seem to be having some major problems identifying the difference.

MadMarty

Easy both! PCGS like drippy frost and deep mirrors on the fields. The devices (this is going to sound real stupid) but must almost glow and appear to float on a black field. That is a DCAM.

Heywood

Sorry for the hijack, but a follow up question.
I have heard the generalization that PCGS is more into the frost and NGC the mirror.

Is it more likely for one to cross from one to the other?

(I have a NGC UCAM that I would love to try and cross to PCGS) ( Franklin)

rocketmangb

PCGS grading is super tight right now.

Sent a Roosie and Frankie CAM for xover @ 1 grade down min.,both DNC

crack and send,frankie comes back 1 grade down and cam,im ok with that.
The Roosie is a moose CAM,(was NGC PR68*CAM)no question about it,comes back 1 grade down and no CAM !

I'm still pissed about that !

Steve

My experience with Lincolns is that the date involved can make a difference in how PCGS designates a CAM or a DCAM. Anything after 1982 generally must be as MadMarty suggests. The 1970's seem to allow for a little slack or inconsistency between CAM and DCAM. For earlier Lincoln's I can't say because I don't have them, but I would suspect that a DCAM must have the characteristics of a first strike. JMHO. Steve

CarlWohlforth

There is not 3 states, brilliant, cameo, deep cameo. The dies wear down gradually so a proof can be anywhere between perfectly brilliant and super, duper, uper deep cameo+++.

NGC and PCGS set their own standards so it is possible they draw the line in slightly different places. In my experience I felt that the line between cameo and deep/ultra cameo is very close for the two companies.

LeeG

One of my best investments was the book about Cameo Coins by Rick Tomaska; "Cameo and Brilliant Proof Coinage of the 1950 to 1970 Era". It isn't that expensive and worth every penny!! Lee

Russ

<< <i>I seem to be having a problem determining what exactly a CAMEO or DEEP CAMEO is. >>



That's okay. PCGS and NGC have the same problem. Fact is, it's not an exact science. The most subtle differences in mirror depth, color of the frost, and degree of contrast can swing the coin in one direction or another.

Look at these two coins, for example:





The first is graded cameo, the second is graded deep cameo. The only real difference between the two is that the first has some slight interruption in the mirrors on the reverse - a bit of mint frost at the periphery. Frankly, though, it should also be graded DCAM, and will be someday.

Russ, NCNE

Cameonut

Rock
You've asked the million dollar question (not that it hasn't been asked here before, but the answer is always an interesting read).

IMHO, the answer to your question lies in looking at many coins. As Carl stated, there is a continuum of how the cameo frost fades as the die wears. Defining the precise point when a dcam becomes a cameo or when a cameo becomes brilliant is difficult to describe or even photograph. Even PCGS doesn't get it right every time. Stated another way, there is a grey area where a deep cameo becomes a cameo and where a cameo becomes brilliant. Coins in the grey area could grade either way on any given day at PCGS. So, by looking at many coins, you will begin to develp an "eye" for where these grey areas are and the characteristics of the mirrors and devices. I have been collecting proof cameos for almost 20 years now and I can't even grade with certainty (but I get it right most of the time now). Most of the debate centers around the coins in the grey areas. This is natural as who would debate a coin that is obviously brilliant, cameo, or deep cameo? Some coins are 'no brainers' when it comes to their appropriate cameo designations - many are not.

Steve is also correct in that the grading standards shift a bit between the pre-1977 coins and the modern coins.

Look at lots of graded coins, even if you do not intend to purchase them. And definately take LeeG's advice and buy Rick Tomaska's book.

rocketmangb

Right now if you buy anything from Tomaska you get the book for FREE !

Actually i hate Cameo coins,especially 1957's !

perfectstrike

In addition to all the above advice, for Memorials through the mid 70's, check the reverse center devices for frost weakness. DCAMs are solid, CAMs are weak in the center (if not in other places too).

David

Myqqy

Actually i hate Cameo coins,especially 1957's !

Is this an alt ID for proof??

TheRock

Russ, your the best. Thanks for the pictures. I talked to MadMarty this morning to get the in depth understanding and your pictures help out 100%. I agree with your pictures and definition. You are one of the best and I trust your opinion.

DHeath

The birthmark die 67's Russ put up will likely become a necessary coin for the serious set builder. Fun stuff. I see someone has already started hoarding them

Oh yeah, one more thing. In reference to your original question, the cam/dcam mark is constantly changing. Many believe it is because the services are inconsistent. I don't. These guys are seeing more coins. Once you've seen a monster so and so, the bar moves. What was once believed a maximum contrast coin becomes a normally contrasted coin. Professional graders have a good memory and the same prejudices we all have. If you doubt the shift, spend some time looking at the earier 65 SMS Lincolns that got the designation cam designation at PCGS//NGC and imagine trying to get the same designation today. Its not just the collectors that are gaining experience points. JMO

Russ

<< <i>The birthmark die 67's Russ put up will likely become a necessary coin for the serious set builder. >>



No they won't. They're a waste of time and money.

Russ, NCNE