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1955 Unidentified Issue

psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
I recently purchased a number of cards from a reputable dealer. He claimed he was selling them for a person who found them in his grandfather's attice. They are of an unknown origin, but clearly appear to be from 1955 since the cards all bear information and statistics about the 1954 season. They are on stiff stock, similar to cereal box material. They measure approximately 2 3/8 by 3 1/2.

Has any one ever seen these? Are they authentically from 1955?

1955 Unidentified

Comments

  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭
    what is with the two cardboard slabs ?? And what about a front scan ?? I am dumb when it comes to true vintage issues but this looks like BS to me.

    Edited to say that the more I look at these the more they look like cutouts from a media guide, book, etc .......

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    The two cardboard "slabs" are the backs of two of the cards, shown to illustrate that the back of the cards are blank.
  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ohhhhh, well in that case ..... RUN, RUN LIKE THE WIND image

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    That was my impression, too, when I received them that they looked like pictures and descriptions from some type of media guide.
  • baseballfanaticbaseballfanatic Posts: 2,415 ✭✭
    My thought would be that they are a later issue and not from 55. You can understand the Mantle, Williams and Robinson as part of a "star" set, but why would Koufax get the nod in 55? Pretty cool looking cards though......
  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • baseballfanaticbaseballfanatic Posts: 2,415 ✭✭
    Royal desserts have plain cardboard backs. A lot of offbeat issues have plain cardboard
  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    There are more of these currently listed on ebay. Do a search under "1955 rare find."
  • CoolidgeCoolidge Posts: 96 ✭
    I have seen the Mantle card before. Other than that, I can't help with any other info.
    image
  • softparadesoftparade Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭✭✭
    well,like I said. I am not well versed in true vintage issues. But I will say this, I would be running so hard from those cards that a vintage Vette would have trouble catching me image

    ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240

  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    The blank back doesn't bother me. There are Post Cereal, Wheaties,
    Jello, etc. It just seems odd that there is no identifying maker or manufacturer, unless that was cut off for some reason.
  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    Coolidge, Do you recall where you might have seen the Mantle before? They all look vaguely familiar to me, but I just can't place where I've seen this configuration of photos and text.
  • baseballfanaticbaseballfanatic Posts: 2,415 ✭✭
    The clean brown cardboard back definately doesnt fit the era that I'm aware of. Gray or tan maybe.
  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    The edges under magnification don't evidence that ragged sawtooth effect you see on cards that have been trimmed or handcut. These edges seem to be "factory" edges. I called PSA and asked if I could send a couple to them to verify, and customer service declined, saying they don't identify the origin of a card, that I should check with authorized PSA dealers.
  • baseballfanaticbaseballfanatic Posts: 2,415 ✭✭
    Definately handcuts. The Billy Loes card is a great example of that. It looks like they are on really thin stock.
  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    They are on stock about the same thickness as a 1955 or 1956 Topps.
  • SHOOTER56SHOOTER56 Posts: 108
    Interesting looking cards,I would try to look them up in my beckett almanac but I'm not at home right now.From what I can tell of the cards in the scan they look vintage as far as the toning goes.Sorry couldn't be much help.

    Jake
  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    I have not been able to find anything like this listed in the Beckett Annual, the Krause annual.
  • AllenAllen Posts: 7,165 ✭✭✭
    I asked about this auction a while back...He has since changed photos but you could likely email him and get a scan and info I am pretty sure it was like these but I don't remember.

    Here is the post...

    Looks like you paid decent money for them
  • dalewdalew Posts: 491
    I looked through the 2004 Sports Collectors Digest by Bob Lemke and couldn't find anything for 1955.

    Dale
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    Mel Harder Showcase Set - Active
    #15 on Current Set Registry - 1972 Topps Baseball - Retired
    #23 on All Time Set Registry - 1972 Topps Baseball - Retired
  • baseballfanaticbaseballfanatic Posts: 2,415 ✭✭
    Just out of curiosity, are you the one who has them for sale on Ebay?
  • ptperptper Posts: 146
    I believe I know the man who found these. He had them on display at the Ft. Washington show a few months ago and this was the same story he told me. After looking at them I think they are vintage and not modern prints. I do not have any idea where they came from or who issued them. They are not catalogued and 1955 is a guesstimate of the date they were printed.

    Some guesses are they were part of a game, maybe they were meant to be part of a book or magazine and were printed on heavy stock as a test. Or maybe a printer decided to make his own set.

    Since these look very similar to some of the thumbnail sketches of ball players in old magazines (like Dell or Street and Smiths), my guess is they were originally made for that purpose, but printed on thicker stock as a test.
    Always looking for T59 Flags.
  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    No, I'm not the one who has them for sale. That would be username rickfanc on ebay. In fact, I'm the one who bought a bunch of them. My username is earhart47. I'm trying to research these "after the fact."
    I've gotten mixed reviews. Today at a card show I showed them to 5 different dealers with a combined 250 plus years in the hobby. None had ever seen these, but generally agreed they looked authentic. One guy smelled the cardboard and claimed it is "old."
  • CoolidgeCoolidge Posts: 96 ✭


    << <i>Coolidge, Do you recall where you might have seen the Mantle before? They all look vaguely familiar to me, but I just can't place where I've seen this configuration of photos and text. >>



    I don't remember where I saw the Mantle. I've never seen any of the other cards.
    image
  • baseballfanaticbaseballfanatic Posts: 2,415 ✭✭
    Glad to see you on the boards here Bob. I've purchased a lot of stuff from you and you always seem to come up with some nice stuff. I know alot about "research after the fact" purchases. Maybe you should send a pic or give a call to Larry Frisch or Bob Lemke.
  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    baseballfanatic,
    That's a good idea. I'll try to send a scan to Lemke and Fritsch. Do you have their email addresses?
  • CoolidgeCoolidge Posts: 96 ✭
    Bob Lemke reads (and is a member of) this message board.
    image
  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,710 ✭✭✭
    I'm forwarding a link to this thread to a friend of mine in OBC, Joshua Levine. He's extremely knowledgeable about cards.

    Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
  • CoolidgeCoolidge Posts: 96 ✭
    Although he's more active on the Net54 board than this one.
    image
  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    Apparently there are about 130 of this same issue that are commons and minor stars. If these are bogus, why would someone go to such lengths to produce common players? It seem more likely that this was a test issue of something. This is what makes the hobby fun, tracking down things like this with the help of friends.
  • bowdowntomebowdowntome Posts: 398
    Well, like I've said before, I don't know much about BB, just FB, but it's indeed interesting looking at something that is possibly a new find. However I, like a few others, have some suspicions about these. Like a couple others stated, they look like thumbnail bio's from an old magazine or guide. They could even have been mounted on cardboard, maybe even old cardboard, before cutting. Mounting can be achieved fairly easly with a dry mount press that photographers use. The fact that they appear to be different sizes would lead me to believe that they are hand cut.

    Someone asked "why make a bunch of common players?" Why not? What better way to make it more believable. I'm not saying these are not authentic and from 1955, it just seems like new discoveries from such a relatively late vintage, would be too unlikely.

    I'll keep an eye on this thread, it could be very interesting, and for the sake of new discoveries I hope everyone's suspicions are wrong, including mine. I love it when something new appears.
    Football collector 1948-1995, Rams oddball cards & memorabilia, Diamond match.
    Cataloging all those pesky, unlisted 1963 Topps football color variations Updated 2/13/05
    image
  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,710 ✭✭✭
    Josh had a look - here are his comments: "my opinion...fake cards...they are probably handcut from newspaper and pasted on cardboard...interesting but probably not vintage"

    Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    I appreciate the comments and interest. I'm assuming they are not an authentic issue, but it is intriguing to try to solve the "mystery."

    I have sent a scan to Joe Orlando, and I believe he will take a look at them.

    Whatever these are, it is my judgment that they were not cut from a magazine or newspaper and pasted onto cardboard. The images and text are definitely printed directly onto the cardboard, not layered on top of the cardboard. It is more likely in my mind that someone photocopied the images and text directly onto the cardboard.

    Again, the though occurs to me, "Why would someone go to this extent and degree of precision to fabricate something that does not have more appeal or identity to generate significant financial interest?" Most fabrications or counterfeits are of cards that are highly valuable and easily recognizable. If thousands of these start showing up, that would make it more understandable that these were probably produced with a monetary incentive in mind.

    I'll keep everyone posted.
  • helionauthelionaut Posts: 1,555 ✭✭
    Creating brand new cards and presenting them as being from another era is probably the best way to scam people. We laugh at color-xeroxed Topps Mantles and such all the time. A known set would be verifiable by a knowledgeable collector, or PSA, anyway. Seeing as some of these cards sold for over $100, I think that's motivation enough for someone out there to fake an uncatalogued set. Computers make this sort of work very easy, and the printing technology available at home or at Kinko's and places like that can make very convincing products. A friend of mine works at Kinko's and she says it's like a rite of passage for new hires to see how good a copy of a dollar bill they can make.
    WANTED:
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  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    Helionaut,
    You're right on, and I'm aware of the modern technology. That's why I have been skeptical from the start. I guess I'm naive in believing people when reputable people tell me they got something from someone whose father remembers having them for years. I've paid the price of being naive and trusting before, and may do the same again. In the meantime, I feel like I owe it to the hobby to check out this issue to completely rule out that this is not an overlooked issue.
    Thanks for your input.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    The scammer got these (or made these) by info obtained from who's who in baseball 1955 I think. ?
    Good for you.
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    you should try looking at them under a microscope, check for the dot patterns.

    compare it to cereal cards from that area or even topps from 55, 56.

    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • MorrellManMorrellMan Posts: 3,240 ✭✭✭


    << <i>[L=I asked about this auction a while back...He has since changed photos but you could likely email him and get a scan and info] >>



    Fat chance getting a response from the great Brian Cattaquet unless you are God; and, even then, it'll be terse and rude.image

    Steve's got a good point - those pics and text do look like they came out of an old Who's Who in Baseball (1955). Anybody got a copy?

    Bob - glad to see you're on the board here; didn't realize you were you.image
    Mark (amerbbcards)


    "All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
  • psa10fanpsa10fan Posts: 73
    I'd love to be able to identify the source of these pictures and text, just to satisfy my own curiosity. The Who's Who in baseball sounds about right.
    Always nice to communicate with positive-minded, helpful fellow collectors.
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,407 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'd love to be able to identify the source of these pictures and text, just to satisfy my own curiosity. The Who's Who in baseball sounds about right.
    Always nice to communicate with positive-minded, helpful fellow collectors. >>


    This is a follow-up to this original inquiry.

    In the Jun 24th issue to SCD, Bob Lemke picked up some of the cards in question. Like many here, he felt it was probably a "cut out" from some publication like Dell e.g. He was given a Gene Conley card which he put in a pan of water - and the image of Art Fowler, who in 1955 had been on the other side of the page, became apparent. Soon after, the newsprint layer of the card had floated free of the cardboard to which it had been glued.

    Whether or not this was a 50's "broder" style card done by some kid or a current day scam is hard to say.

    mike
    Mike
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    thats pretty interesting!

    learn something new every day.
    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
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