A dealers perspective..dont be like this customer of mine!!

coinlieutenant

Just a little rant with me wearing my dealers hat...since most of you know that I swing both ways. This advice is also me talking to myself



Little history on this guy. I sold for him last year a 1799 polywogged ANACS net 40 Eagle that he made a ton of money on...he gave me 100$... and I put a coin that I couldnt sell at the price that he wanted in auction for him at a better rate than he could get. He gave me 50$ for my troubles...after he made 700$ more on the auction coin than he wanted.

He calls me the other day looking for coins...he is interested in a 1806 quarter with killer toning in PCGS AU50, an original 1866 rays nickel in XF and a nice AU55 standing quarter.
I was in the 1806 2600$, the 1866 120$, and the SLQ 60$.

He tried to trade a plethora of coins, mostly raw and or net graded at ANACS...

I finally told him that he could have the three coins he wanted for a raw Fine 1799 bust dollar of his and 2100$ cash....

This is the response that he sent me....followed by the response that I sent him back...
My advice is to not be like this guy...
*****************************************************************************************************
I'll pass on your offer. I had thot you might be a 10% profit part time
dealer seeing as you don't depend on it for a living. By your own numbers
on the 99$, by buying it from me for $900 and selling it for $1350, you'd
make 40%+. And that's not even giving me any cash money. That's fine, if
that's what you want, but I'll look elsewhere to sell my duplicates. Let me
know if you change your mind about profit margins. I wish you luck in
finding clientele, but I can tell you it might not sit well with people once
they see how hard it will be to trade with them.

I've got someone I'm shipping to who pays more than gray sheet, but suspect
I'll have to hold, at least some of the coins and hope they go up in price.
No hard feelings here. Just a little disappointed, but hey, it's your
business and I sincerely wish you luck. I will never forget your earlier
efforts and thank you again for them.
******************************************************************************************************

MY RESPONSE:

I think that you need to redo your math Steve.

I am in the the quarter 2600$, the shield nickel 120$, and the
standing quarter 60$ for a total cost to me of 2780$

So...if you give me your dollar and 2100$ in exchange for the three
coins and I sell your dollar for 1350$ that means that I have $3450
gross on the coins that I sold. Add to my cost the shipping to you of
18$, the shipping TO NGC for slabbing of the dollar of 18$, grading
fees of 25$ and shipping back from NGC of 18$. The total cost to me
is then almost 2860$.

I will have sold or had tied up 4200$ worth of coins back and forth
across the country which cost me 2860$ to sell. 3450(money in) minus
2860(my cost) = 590$ profit. That comes out to be 17% profit...BEFORE
you calculate my phone bill that I have to pay to talk to customers,
gas driving to and from the post office, shipping supplies etc. OR my
time commitment.

Oh, and dont forget, that is only the profit if I get the coin into a
NGC Fine holder. What happens to my profit margin if the coin comes
back in a bodybag? What happens if it is counterfeit? Can I be
guaranteed that you will buy it back?

I know that you dont think about all this stuff. You may know coins
but you dont know your ass from a hot rock when it comes to running a
coin business.

Furthermore, it shouldnt matter to you what I make on the coins. The
coin is worth to you what it is worth to you. It is independant of
what I paid. What about you making thousands of dollars on your early
ten and early five that I sold/auctioned for you and I made a lousy
150$? You didnt seem to concerned about profit margins then!!

Look Steve, I like you, I really do...

I like you because you are passionate about coins, and I am passionate
about coins and can relate.

BUT, you need to stop worrying about what the other guys is making and
start figuring out what a coin is worth to you. If the selling price
is at or below what the coin is worth to you, then you got a good
deal!!! You are a reasonable person so you will not overpay for
stuff. You have good instincts, but you are a tightass...and I have
never seen a tightass with a stellar collection. Think about that.

I do coins for fun but it is still a job and I deserve to be
compensated for it.

I am as honest a guy you will find in the coin business.

Your coins, money and collection goals are all safe and will not be
taken advantage of when dealing with me. You can either use that to
your advantage and continue to deal with me, or you can drive me to
distraction...to the point where you will be # 148 on my call list
whenever I get something new in stock.

SO...I am not upset about you passing on the deal, just a bit annoyed
on how you passed on it.

Respectfully,
John

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>You may know coins but you dont know your ass from a hot rock when it comes to running a
coin business. >>



If you had stopped right before this line, I think your letter would have read as logical yet forceful, and you might have convinced the collector that perhaps he had misjudged your business model and brought him back into the fold as a customer.

coinlieutenant

Yeah...I might have been a bit TOO forceful there...

I'm human.....

ScarsdaleCoin

I agree you were great until these two lines...
I know that you dont think about all this stuff. You may know coins
but you dont know your ass from a hot rock when it comes to running a
coin business.

Furthermore, it shouldnt matter to you what I make on the coins. The
coin is worth to you what it is worth to you. It is independant of
what I paid. What about you making thousands of dollars on your early
ten and early five that I sold/auctioned for you and I made a lousy
150$? You didnt seem to concerned about profit margins then!!

coinlieutenant

C'mon guys...this isnt supposed to be about bashing me!!

You have never told anyone off before Jon?

Hmmmm.....???

RYK

You have good instincts, but you are a tightass...and I have
never seen a tightass with a stellar collection.

That was my favorite line...and so very true.

Fortunately/unfortunately, you may have turned this guy off with the tone of your response. In the short run, that might be a problem for you. In the long run, you are better off without him.

PutTogether

I think your response was perfect, I really do. You crossed the line a BIT when you with ass/hot rock comment, but you pulled it back and saved it by letting him know that you like him, and respect his passion from coins. Only problem is, he's probably pretty embarassed reading that letter, and hopefully you guys can patch things up. Either way, the letter was called for, and you did a good job.

Eric

Barry

If I were in your situation, I wouldn't have bothered responding. I would just write the guy off.
You'll never win with a guy like that.

Coinhusker1

Coin Lt., why do customers need to know what you make on a coin? It is none of their business. If you had bought the coin at the top of the market and were taking a loss, I do not think the customer would insist on paying more!!

The only relevant factor is the fair market value of the coin, not your basis in it or your business expenses, of which you have NO need to disclose to the customer.

I saw this situation described on a thread in Sleepy Hollow as well -- it perplexes me how these type of conversations get started in the first place.

boiler78

John,
I think your response is great! The "client" should pass or play without going into how much money he thinks you are going to make on the deal. His math was fuzzy and he really doesn't know his ass from a hot rock when it comes to the coin business, very few collectors do. That is why we aren't dealers.

Now quit venting and find me some coins!

Mark

MAD4MORGANS

I'm not a dealer but I know you can't run any business on a 10% gross return before expenses. You were right that he had no idea (or concern) of what it takes to run a business and STAY in business. You business isn't to ensure HE makes a profit. You have enough worries of your own.

It appears his only concern was how much profit he could make reselling your coins. So he's not a true collector who has a love of coins. Instead of him writing you a letter which appeared to upset you enough to return one in kind, he should have negotiated with you face to face where both of you could come to terms and make a "fair" profit.

Yeah, maybe you could have refrained from the few remarks you made to him but customer service shouldn't mean you have to bend over and kiss the customer's butt either.

In this situation, I don't think you screwed up...he did. He lost a good source of supply with whom his risk was significantly lower than buying coins on line or off TV infomercials.

If he needs a new source of supply, I and others here at the forum can give him a few references...starting with everyone on our blocked sellers lists.

Life's too short to worry about waterheads like that guy!!

whitebuffalo

I think you did a fine job!! If everything you said is how it happened, then he should be able to look back and see that you are right. The truth hurts sometimes. If he trusts you as a dealer he will lick his wounds and come back. If not, doesnt sound like he was really worth the time and effort you had to put in to him. IMHO

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>C'mon guys...this isnt supposed to be about bashing me!!

You have never told anyone off before Jon?

Hmmmm.....??? >>



You told the guy off successfully, and as a result he'll very likely never buy from you again. More likely he'll tell a lot of other people what you said to him - so from a business standpoint, I don't think this is a very productive move on your part.

In my experience, customers like 'Steve' aren't unusual. Some can even be rehabilitated with an explanation and a few examples of how you by and sell and an understanding that you are actually being fair and reasonable in your dealings.

markglicker

Thank you for your service to our country, John. With all due respect, you should have seen this Typhoon coming. It is important to establish early, that you are indeed in the coin business for a fair profit. It seems that with your first dealings, you accepted the very meager fees which he offered. I often do the same thing, that is why my 401k is smaller than my monthly phone bill. Your time is valuable, and you (and I), need to let the customer know this from the beginning.

Fairlaneman

Two items that I just do not get, understand, when people or myself purchase a coin. The first is a customer asking how much the dealer paid for the coin and the second is a dealer revealing what was paid for the coin. Buying the coin is a pass or play situation that just could involve some dealing but still the dealers cost or the dealer telling his cost does not need to be revealed.

Ken

jbsteven

stuff like this is why I have put coin dealing on hold. Stuff like this is not worth my time.

mr1931S

He tried to trade a plethora of coins, mostly raw and or net graded at ANACS...

My shlock for your nice coins. Way to go, Steve. Too bad it din't work.

ddink

CoinLT, I think the hot rock line was good!

carl

I believe you wasted your time and only frustrated yourself even answering stuff like that. As I get older and have survived many operations I find that wasting time and energy discussing anything with an individual that will probably always be the same regardlless of what anyone says is just not worth my effort. Think of all the nice things and people in life are really worth your time. Due to my medical condition I've found that time left is something to cherish and not waste on something that frustrates me such as individuals like that. As already suggested just write that person off, ignore individuals like that, spend time on something worth your time. Do you really think that anything you say to that person will make a difference in the way that person thinks? I doubt it.

dimples

Hey John, Ill buy any high end peace dollars at a $50-$100 over your cost any time.

I think you were very fair, maybe a little strong but I think this collector will think twice about what you said.

Dan

Hedger

If you guys know each other well enough no big deal. It's all in good fun.

thebeav

I'm always surprised when someone is concerned what someone else makes on a coin. If I'm paying 1000 for a coin, why would I care if you paid 1100 or if your mom gave you the coin for free ?....When I sell, I'm hoping that the buyer, if they are going to turn the coin, does great !! That means they'll be back with more money and believe me, there are always more coins......

Paul

xbob

Coinlieutenant, I agree with your response. At least you got to speak your mind to him and let off some steam since he probably wasn't coming back anyway. "Get Lost" would have been sufficient, but at least you tried to explain your situation to him.

In my business ownership experience (non-coin related, but also not a fixed-price model) it never fails that so many customers think that they should get everything for nothing, or cost. A fair business deal is supposed to be profitable for the business. That's what business is. As long as you are not trying to rip the customers off, what is wrong with a reasonable profit?

It seems some problem customers can be just as much a PITA as some problem dealers. We usually only hear about problem dealers on the forums so thanks for posting a view from the other side of the table.

Longacre

I don't think his original message to you should have dignified a response. He seems somewhat amatuer-ish and you are probably better off without him.

AgMe

<< <i>...

*****************************************************************************************************
I'll pass on your offer. I had thot you might be a 10% profit part time
dealer seeing as you don't depend on it for a living. By your own numbers
on the 99$, by buying it from me for $900 and selling it for $1350, you'd
make 40%+. And that's not even giving me any cash money. That's fine, if
that's what you want, but I'll look elsewhere to sell my duplicates. Let me
know if you change your mind about profit margins. I wish you luck in
finding clientele, but I can tell you it might not sit well with people once
they see how hard it will be to trade with them.

I've got someone I'm shipping to who pays more than gray sheet, but suspect
I'll have to hold, at least some of the coins and hope they go up in price.
No hard feelings here. Just a little disappointed, but hey, it's your
business and I sincerely wish you luck. I will never forget your earlier
efforts and thank you again for them.
******************************************************************************************************
... >>



Hello all,

I don't see why the client went into all this detail, either you want to deal or you don't.

I think your reply was strongly worded, but as we all know, this hobby isn't for the thinned skinned.

-g

Sphinx357

<< <i>I'm always surprised when someone is concerned what someone else makes on a coin. If I'm paying 1000 for a coin, why would I care if you paid 1100 or if your mom gave you the coin for free ?....When I sell, I'm hoping that the buyer, if they are going to turn the coin, does great !! That means they'll be back with more money and believe me, there are always more coins......

Paul >>

whitebuffalo

And as for him telling other people about what you said and them not coming to see you because of it.....I doubt that will happen to. Chances are the people he would tell know he is like that and probably will get a kick out of hearing what you said to him.

orie

That was a great letter. To bad you didn’t quit on the guy after the first transaction. I have a friend just like him who’s been an ANA member for 50 years plus. He runs from one dealer to the next and only buys from the bad ones. Only thing I can figure, he loves the pain.

Smittys

I think both of you were wrong.
A simple no thank you.
And the A$$ line was out of line.
Being the bigger man is harder, but pays off in the long run.
JMO

Bustman

The situation was handled rather immaturely by both parties. WAY too much info.

K6AZ

John, I've dealt with you one time and it was a very pleasant experience. Having said that however, I'll give you my view on this.

The name calling strikes me as very unprofessional. IMO you should have just thanked him on his offer and courtesy of informing you that he passed on the deal.

I think posting the exact exchange here was a mistake in light of the above.

BigMoose

John, I think the letter was excellent and to the point. You really don't need douchebags like this guy interfering with your enjoyment in collecting and selling coins. The best thing you could have done was to send him this letter which, in effect, cut you loose from ever having to deal with him again. There are a lot of collectors out there who are not tightwads, nice people who are simply trying to put together the best collection they can afford and understand. TomT.

mgoodm3

I rather enjoyed it. Sometimes you just have to tell someone off. In some cases a bully will suddenly become your best friend after it.

coinlieutenant

Wow...you definitely have to be thick skinned to post anything on this board.

I posted this situation as a reminder to collectors to pay what you feel is fair and not worry about profit margins. Period.
That these are the things that drive dealers crazy. Tomorrow I might post something that drives collectors crazy and is just as
annoying on the other side of the table.

Since then I was called immature and unprofessional.... Great. Thanks for the pointers.

I admitted that I might have been a bit harsh, but this has been an ongoing history with this guy. I have tried in the past to be firm with him on subjects and it doesnt
seem to sink in. Maybe I should have just written him off, but if I didnt respond he just would have called me again in two weeks and the same thing would have happened.

I told him what I was in the coins because I wanted to put his mind at ease, show him what I would buy the coin back at under market conditions.
I agree that info isnt necessary, but to a skittish collector, that can be a pacifier.

Some customers I do it for, and some not...

John

Proofquarter

A sellers cost has nothing to do with todays value on anything.

markglicker

Remember, "The customer is always right, but not always bright".

coinlieutenant

He wrote and apologized this morning.

As did I for being so.....blunt...

ss350camaro

<< <i>He wrote and apologized this morning.

As did I for being so.....blunt... >>



Good for him and good for you

This should have a good effect on your relationship with him. Understanding each others points of view, business, and ethics will be a good thing.

K6AZ

John, the problem these days is a lot of people think they're dealers. I've run across people like your buyer, and I simply move on. The problem with escalating a situation where a buyer passes is that a lot of times they will tell others what a crummy seller you are. It's really best just to let it go and not get into it with someone who passed on your coins.

I see you two have made up, but just take this into consideration the next time you run into this situation.

prooflike

I liked your response, to the point.

Customers come, customers go... all part of the game.

relayer

<< <i>...BEFORE you calculate my phone bill that I have to pay to talk to customers,
gas driving to and from the post office, shipping supplies etc. OR my time commitment. >>



It's always about the gas to drive to the post office.

coinlieutenant

Relayer,

You think gas on the mainland is bad? Try Hawaii!!

MICHAELDIXON

John,
I think your response was right on track! These ba$tards who try to shaft people need to be alerted that others are on to them. I had a similar thing happen and I told the guy: "I'll eat the coin and holder without salt or pepper before I sell the *&^%ing thing to you!" He ended up being thankful for me ripping him apart and we have done lots of deals, now. But...he hasn't tried to screw me again.
Mike

RYK

I hope that I never cross the CL, but I take comfort knowing that when I get chewed out by the CL, I will have been chewed out by the best.

(Disclosure: John and I are friends, I know John is as honest and upstanding as they come, and he knows that I am being facetious.)

Coinhusker1

<< <i>Relayer,

You think gas on the mainland is bad? Try Hawaii!! >>



Is it over $3 there yet?

slabseller

<< <i>I know that you dont think about all this stuff. You may know coins
but you dont know your ass from a hot rock when it comes to running a
coin business...

You have good instincts, but you are a tightass...and I have
never seen a tightass with a stellar collection. Think about that...

You can either use that to
your advantage and continue to deal with me, or you can drive me to
distraction...to the point where you will be # 148 on my call list
whenever I get something new in stock.

>>

stman

<< <i>It's always about the gas to drive to the post office. >>

goose3

I like it CL!!!!

"Velvet Hammer" technique at it's finest!

coinlieutenant

Sometimes, just sometimes, the military comes out in me....

Then I wake up and realize that I am a weatherman and laugh and laugh until I cry...

coinlieutenant

Robert,

I just act like we are friends so I can sell you overgraded junk at exhorbatant prices...that is the newbie way!!

Did you ever get that eagle into a three holder btw?

J

RYK

Did you ever get that eagle into a three holder btw?

Three holder? I took it to NGC, and they said it was mechanical error. The coin is now in a five holder.