What are roller marks and howdo they affect a coins grade?

tome20

I have a couple of Morgans that are borderline 64/65, but they have what I believe are roller marks. What causes them and how do they affect a coins grade?

coinguy1

Roller marks:

"Parallel incuse lines found on a coin after it is struck. It is believed that roller marks are caused when the strips of metal are pulled through draw bars (set at a precise distance apart to ensure the planchet blanks will be at the correct thickness). "

Generally speaking, if light, the roller-marks might not affect the grade at all. If heavy/obtrusive, they could certainly lower the grade of the coin by a point.

kranky

Mark, the striations you mention are different from the marks made by counting machines, right? Are those called roller marks as well?

coinguy1

Kranky, counting machine marks are indeed different (in terms of source and appearance) from roller marks - here is a definition I found for counting machine marks:

"A dense patch of lines caused by the rubber wheel of a counting machine. Caused when the wheel spacing was insufficient for the selected coin."

kranky

Thanks!

Purple73

this should be added to the tidbit thread.

tome20

Coinguy1, Thank you for your response.

BAJJERFAN

Here is an example of roller marks!! When the silver stock was rolled into sheets from which the planchets were stamped, the rollers of course were not perfectly smooth and left the sheets and planchets with a brushed look. The pressure of striking the coin was supposed to remove them but that wasn't always the case. In this particular coin they are not very apparent to the unaided eye, but do show up quite well with a loupe or a pic as shown here. This coin is in a PCGS holder at ms64 and likely would be a 65 without them. The 1902-S Morgan is well known for having this blemish.

Stuart

Bajjerfan: Are those roller marks on your 1902-S raised lines above the coin surface or incused down into it??

BAJJERFAN

Stuart
I no longer have this coin but I believe the lines were recessed as opposed to die polish lines which appear to be raised when viewed because they are in the die and not on the planchet.

Stuart

Bajjerfan: I just noticed something that looks very similar on the obverse of my new 1880-CC (80/79 Rev '78) Morgan Dollar which I just received today, and was wondering what may have caused them.

BAJJERFAN

Stuart
Can't see any lines in the pix you posted but Herb ibzman350 has a 64 or 65 82-cc Morgan with some prominent roller marks on the obverse. Perhaps he will repost the pic here.

coinguy1

I neglected to mention before, that while roller marks don't cause a coin to get body-bagged, counting machine marks can be cause for a no-grade.

However, if the counting machine marks are not too severe, the coin might just be net-graded lower than it otherwise would have been.

Thanks for the thanks guys. : )

VicPortland

Is this a roller mark?

VicPortland

oops. Wrong photo last time. This is the one I intended to upload.

NumisOxide

Someone on the boards told me this was a roller mark on the obverse.

BAJJERFAN

I would say they were right on those marks.

numobri

post.

Learned something tonight.

Thanks.

Brian

michael

roller maeks are really common on morgans and it is a killer when the roller marks are on the face/cheek

and many many morgans have them on the cheek area


pass on morgans with roller marks on the cheek

bad news

numobri

Do"roller marks"= weak strike?

BAJJERFAN

Weak strike is one possibility. The other is that the dies were not adjusted properly to remove the marks upon strike or that the planchets with roller marks were used just like planchets with adjustment marks and instead of being scrapped and remelted the resulting coins were kept instead.

MAD4MORGANS

<< <i>Do"roller marks"= weak strike? >>



Here's a definition of weak strike from the CONECA website's Glossary of error terms:

<< <i>Weak strike - These coins were struck with lower-than-normal pressure. They are distinguished from die adjustment strikes in the amount of design showing. Weak strikes show the complete design except at the points of highest relief >>



I've read that the New Orleans Mint use lower striking pressures to prolong the life of the Morgan dies. This may explain the high points like the hair above the ear and more rounding of the Eagle's breast with less feather detail on many Morgans from that mint.

There are still a lot of them with good strike but I would imagine the majority of these were from the dies during the earlier die stage.

CONECA GLOSSARY OF ERROR TERMS

roadrunner

Roller marks show up fairly often on seated half dimes of the late 1850's as well as Barber halves of the 1900-1909 era. For some reason I seem to see them more often on S mint Barber halves.
Each time a coin with these comes up for auction, and is a gem otherwise, it brings ALL the money. Obviously they don't seem to deter the dealers. The latest STack's sale had a gem 1855 half dime with heavy roller marks across the obverse. I graded the coin a gem 65+ nontheless. The coin brought strong 66 money at $4600 so it didn't deter the winning bidder either.

roadrunner

jdsinva

This one has them real good. . .