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? for capped bust H10 & quarter experts
billdauman
Posts: 33
Been doing some research online and Red Book regarding these series...as a new collector they meet many of the criteria (older, short date run, some varieties, within budget, and designer has same first name :-))......however...
I have decided that ms40 to 50 is the grade of choice but there do not appear to be many slabbed in this grade range...how are these coins for buying raw...grading per the Red Book seems well defined but what are the pitfalls to look out for in terms of cleaning,etc? Am kind of worried buying a raw 170 year old coin.
Or should I be patient and look for PCGS & NGC samples?
Thanks for the help.
I have decided that ms40 to 50 is the grade of choice but there do not appear to be many slabbed in this grade range...how are these coins for buying raw...grading per the Red Book seems well defined but what are the pitfalls to look out for in terms of cleaning,etc? Am kind of worried buying a raw 170 year old coin.
Or should I be patient and look for PCGS & NGC samples?
Thanks for the help.
0
Comments
I've come to the conclusion, though many will disagree, that if a coin isn't already in a slab by now it makes me suspicious. Did the coin just
get cracked out or has it been bodybagged? This is where learning about the various ways to tell if a coin has been cleaned or tampered
with are very important. Until you've honed these skills don't buy raw, especially within a series of such small coins that may be hard to
examine.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>Am kind of worried buying a raw 170 year old coin. >>
worried? or paranoid?
it's just simple common sense that most coins that have been collected for > 100 years have been messed w/ in some way, so you can expend a whole lot time & energy worrying about getting that "perfect" coin (which seldom exists), or learn what your tolerance level is. slabs afford you little protection here, as most , yes MOST, of the au-level bust coins in slabs HAVE BEEN MESSED WITH.
your better off finding a DEALER (real not wannabe) who actually KNOWS something, & can guide you.
btw, not slamming you, just pointing out that your embarking on a series w/out even knowing up front what YOU LIKE (as opposed to what a slab co. likes)
K S
Personally, I would recommend against raw unless you are familiar enough to be able to know a problem when you see it. I would also agree that in my somewhat jaded opinion, these days if its not slabbed there is a reason for it.
I can only speak on the Capped Bust Half-Dimes, as that is what I collect, and I generally don't pay much attention to the other denominations.
There is a lot of cleaned and damaged and bent junk out there. Be careful with even slabbed coins, because they do slip through, especially slightly bent coins, and you couldn't tell if it was bent in the holder. The Half-Dimes are a tough coin to find, in general. While inexpensive, they are scarce on the bourse floor. Sometimes, you do have to make sacrifices and buy a lightly cleaned coin. I have 2 or 3 pieces in my modestly small collection that have DEFINATELY been cleaned before, but I like them, cause they've retoned nicely
42/92
42/92
<< <i>I have been reading advice here that buying a slabbed coin vs raw DOES offer "some" protection to the buyer with the additional advice to buy on eye appeal not just grade....am i wrong in believing that the major grading servives will not grade a coin with major problems? Or are you paranoid to say that MOST AU coins in this series have problems?? >>
It "does." But, the TPGs are HORRIBLE about letting coins with minor problems into their holders, when they claim to never slab problem coins. You certainly can find some nice coins in their holders, but don't explicitly trust the holder.
Feel free to send me a PM if you have any other specific questions
42/92
I also agree with JRG and pretty much everyone here......Where is MrHalfDime? Helllllllllooooooooooo!
When MrHalfdime shows up you will get all of your answers. The guy is wicked smart with half dimes. Kinda scares me LOL
<< <i>these days if its not slabbed there is a reason for it. >>
w/ bust coins that's a totally wacky stance to take. if anything, when i see a bust coin in a slab, i wonder what's wrong w/ it that it needs a piece of plastic to sell. collectors who buy bust coins aren't stupid.
K S
<< <i>I wouldn't instantly be suspicious of low grade slabbed Cappers solely because they are slabbed. Just realize they may not be problem free. Look at them as close and carefully as you would a raw coin. All of my Cappers are in PCGS and they are there for protection and because it raises the amount of money I can get for them if, god forbid, I have to sell them one day (Plus my favorite way to display my coins is in Eagle Slab pages). >>
Cladiator...this is the type of info i'm looking for...in fact your registry set is one of the reasons i'm considering capped bust half dimes and quarters.....you've "made" many of these....how many times were your coins returned ungraded? is the harshly cleaned coin the bulk of the problems you see?
what are some of the signs to look for in a bad coin? Is this too much to ask of a novice who is willing to learn the major signs and accept some minor ones?
Thanks
K S
Edited to add: Dorkkarl is right. I collect bust coins and they happen to be in PCGS slabs so I figured what the heck I might as well put them up on the registry
I have about 200 bust coins, those under MS70 have at least some problems (all of them!). Some of my more expensive coins are in slabs, but I would not want all of my coins in slabs. Without taking sides on the issue, the fact is most of the better AU and up bust coins are now sold in slabs, buts lots of nice VF-XF bust coins are sold raw (except bust dollars).
Bill
<< <i>"collecting bust coins" & "collecting bust coins for the pcgs registry set" = 2 totally different things.
K S >>
According to Webster-----collect --to bring or gather together in a group;assemble;to accumulate from a number of sources.
collecting is collecting regardless of the purpose.
<< <i> Just wait until you get into the Logan-McClosky variety and rarity levels, it makes looking for a coin like a treasure hunt! Good luck and have fun!!!
>>
Cladiator,
Thanks for the info and help...I've read a little about LM variety and rarity levels ....are these just for H10 or do they cover the Quarters also? What's a good book on these two series?
I have been a serious collector of the Bust series for about 30 years. I started out making lots of mistakes buying raw coins as many others have done. After the grading services came into the picture I began buying mostly PCGS/NGC/ANACS coins and recently I have not purchased a single raw Bustie. Many Busties I bought were body bagged, resubmitted and holdered, resubmitted and rejected and again resubmitted and holdered. Point being, it is difficult to get Busties into the holder you feel is correct, and I am no longer willing to put up with the grading service submission crap. Leave the raw coins for someone that has become an expert on grading the series.
Bust quarters are relatively expensive and the book for them is very poor and outdated.
Bust halves are much more plentiful, larger to look at, have a fairly strong collector base, have a great variety book, and they are far cheaper than quarters.
If your eyes are good the half dimes are fine. I would also suggest XF/AU grades, my favorite grade being AU58. You can find these coins on Teletrade and Ebay, and at coin shows.
As for slabs vs. raw my personal preference is raw. As George stated, the major reason slabs in your stated grade range are slim and far between isn't because of the dirth of slabbable coins but simply that in general they are not worth the price of slabbing them.
Jim
There has been quite a bit of good, solid advice given in this thread previously, so I do not want to repeat what has already been stated. I must agree, however, with JrGman, that the Bust coins tend to attract collectors who don't give a hoot for slabs or TPGs, and will crack them out just as soon as they get them home. This tends to keep a lot of Bust material raw, particularly for the collector grades of XF and AU. Not one of my half dimes is presently in a slab; otherwise I could not weigh them, measure the diameter, count the edge reeds, do specific gravity tests to confirm authenticity, or just plain appreciate them. Besides, the plastic inserts used by most TPGs to house the little half dimes in the slabs encroach the coins to the point where you can hardly see them.
It is perhaps unusual for a new collector to go directly to a Bust series, so it is unusual to have to tell Bust collectors to learn the basics like grading, artificial toning vs. natural toning, attribution, and the like, but these are essential skills that must be mastered before venturing too many precious dollars.
I can recall, not too many years ago, that Bust half dimes were plentiful in the collector grades of EF and AU. They could be found in quantity at any small show. The rare die marriages were always rare, but the baby busties were plentiful in those grades. But since the advent of die marriage collecting, Jules Reiver's VIM's, and the Logan/ McCloskey book, and the subsequent popularity they engendered, these coins have all but disappeared. I can't imagine beginning to collect this series today; it will be significantly more difficult.
As to whether to buy coins on eBay, I strongly believe there is no substitute for holding the coin in your hand, up close and personal, before making a decision to buy. I have bought a lot of coins on line, but I much prefer a show or going to a dealer's shop.
On the subject of the Bust quarters, and the need to rewrite the Browning book, it is being done as we speak. JRCS members Brad Karoleff and Glenn Peterson are coauthoring an update for the Browning book, and will be available within a year. The only two known 'complete' collections of Bust quarters, one from Arkansas and one from Delaware, were used for the photographic plates in the new update. Incidentally, A. W. Browning did a pretty good job back in 1927, as his book has stood the test of time quite well.
If you are considering collecting the Capped Bust half dimes, I can offer much encouragement, as that series has entertained and educated me for many years. There are many ways to begin collecting them, depending upon your interest and budget. The series is quite short (just nine years, 1829-1837), and there are no 'rare dates' in the series. The mintages for each year were approximately similar, ranging from about 800,000 to 2 million, and the survival rates by date are approximately equal. It should be relatively easy to collect a complete date set in your grade of choice without much problem.
You may elect to continue with a 'Redbook' set, comprising the major varieties listed in the Redbook (Guide Book of United States Coins; Yeoman). This would include fourteen pieces, including the Large and Small dates, Large and Small 5C varieties of 1835, the Large and Small 5C of 1836, and the Large and Small 5C varieties of 1837. Once bitten by the Bust fever bug, you may elect to pursue all 91 die marriages listed in "The Federal Half Dimes" by Russ Logan and John McCloskey, a book which you will want to acquire if you do elect to pursue the series. The book is now out of print, and available on the aftermarket at around $70.00. Check with any of the numismatic book dealers (Charlie Davis, John Burns, George Kolby, etc) for a copy, or look on eBay. If you have problems acquiring a copy, please contact me and I can help you. Collecting all 91 die marriages for the Capped Bust half dimes will be a real challenge, and will take many years regardless of your budget. It has only been accomplished four times in history, and is presently limited to just three complete collections, due to the extreme rarity of the 1833 LM-5 (old V10), for which there are just three known specimens.
It is a fascinating series to collect, and if any of the Bust denominations interest you, you should also consider becoming a member of the John Reich Collectors Society (JRCS), devoted to the study of all early Federal issues. I can supply you with a membership application and help you with that, as well. Enjoy your hobby, regardless of what you decide to collect.
Steve Crain
<< <i><< "collecting bust coins" & "collecting bust coins for the pcgs registry set" = 2 totally different things.
K S >>
According to Webster-----collect --to bring or gather together in a group;assemble;to accumulate from a number of sources.
collecting is collecting regardless of the purpose. >>
"collecting" is a word. "collecting bust coins" & "collecting registry sets" are terms that you will not find in ANY webster, no way no how.
the ability to "buy" coins does not equate to being a coin collector.
i own on the order of 50 unc bust coins right now, & i'm telling you, not even 1 of them will ever be slabed in my lifetime. the coins do not deserve to suffer such ignominous fate. it's degrading to think that a coin w/ 170 years of character can be bluntly defined by a single, stupid number on a piece of plastic.
K S
Going to buy some books and look at some busties before i buy anything.
This looks like an endeavor worth pursuing.....who knows in 10 years I may start the William Kneass Collectors Society....if there already isn't one.
bill
<< <i>On the subject of the Bust quarters, and the need to rewrite the Browning book, it is being done as we speak. JRCS members Brad Karoleff and Glenn Peterson are coauthoring an update for the Browning book, and will be available within a year. >>
Any word on this? Has it made it to print?
<< <i>
<< <i>On the subject of the Bust quarters, and the need to rewrite the Browning book, it is being done as we speak. JRCS members Brad Karoleff and Glenn Peterson are coauthoring an update for the Browning book, and will be available within a year. >>
Any word on this? Has it made it to print? >>
From the last JRCS meeting, Glenn Peterson reported that they are still working on it, but gave no date of publication/release.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>On the subject of the Bust quarters, and the need to rewrite the Browning book, it is being done as we speak. JRCS members Brad Karoleff and Glenn Peterson are coauthoring an update for the Browning book, and will be available within a year. >>
Any word on this? Has it made it to print? >>
From the last JRCS meeting, Glenn Peterson reported that they are still working on it, but gave no date of publication/release. >>
Hm, I must have missed that part
Edite to fix typo.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.