New to the forum

Taikonaut

Hi, I am from the UK and just found this forum. I have been collecting for 25 years since I was a lad but I havent really been actively doing so, only collected out of interest on a unfrequent basis. Here in the UK our grading system is far more conservative than the US but more fair in valuing coins. I am often confused by the way Americans grade coins, an MS60 is probably worse looking than our EF grade, in the US a scratched coin even across the face or design appears to worth more than a blemish free coin with a slightly more wear while the reverse is true in the UK. I dont mean to offend but I cannot really appreciate why a coin slabbed say by PCGS should be worth more than a similar coin in raw even in a better condition and I have seen many on ebay that reflect this trend. As a collector I have always been told that a value of a coin should not be judged by any external criteria, this is quite true because if there is an extremely valueable coin at an auction above say $50k or even the 1933 Saint Gaudens one would imagine it wouldnt be slabbed but free from any judgement from any grading companies and up to the bidder's judgement.

Cheers

Wah

nwcs

Welcome! I can understand your confusion on the grading scales. Basically the numbers aren't comparable unless the same standards are applied. when I took a grading class they told us that Europeans grade their coins using the same numbers but with different standards.

As for MS-60, an uncirculated coin's lowest grade is 60 no matter what. The slab vs. raw debate is an interesting one with lots of differing opinions. It has been my observation that longer term collectors tend to be more against them than more recent collectors. Ultimately a PCGS coin will sell for more than the raw counterpoint because of the guarantee put behind the coin by PCGS. Anything that raises a person's confidence in the coin will have an impact on price.

Dennis88

I live in the Netherlands, and when I started collecting US coins a few years ago (I had already collecting European coins for more than 5 years, I'm only 16), it was very hard for me to understand the grading...

Here are some tips which might help to convert UK to US grading standards. Those we do here in the Netherlands are also different

-If a coin has no wear, it will be graded Mint state by the third party grading companies
-A coin can have a lot of marks, from say handling, if it has no wear IT IS Mint state.
-A nice FDC or BU coin will most of the time grade between MS-63 and MS-66 at PCGS or NGC (own experience) Most of the coins will be MS-64

If you turn you PM feature on, we can discuss this further if you want

Good Luck,

Dennis

PS If you really want to learn US grading, my advice would be to look at A LOT of coins...

Taikonaut

Yes I realise an MS coin being equievelent to Uncirculated but the prices for a heavily scratched MS60 is worth more than a blemish free Au58, that is deciding the value of a coin based on a standard that at least in here appears to judge a technically more damaged coin as more valueble than a less damaged one.

mgoodm3

Welcome.

Dennis88

That's because some people really want an uncirculated coin, tough an AU-58 might be nicer. That's especially the case with some Liberty double eagles from the 19th century. Some are unknown in uncirculated, and other with only one or two known.

Registry points are VERY important then.

Dennis

TheRaven

I would say if a coin was a MS-60 coin and it has a number of major scratches, but was still a coin with no wear only damage to it that coin would not likely sell for the price of a MS-60 coin, but for a percentage of that coin.

Finding coins in MS-60 grade is also not that easy, if you are looking at a case of 100 morgan siilver dollars or gold double eagles you are not likely to see many 60's in there, but 62-65 graded ones.

Just for curiousity sake how available are american coins in Europe?

RKKay

<< <i>but the prices for a heavily scratched MS60 is worth more than a blemish free Au58 >>


I don't agree with this assumption. Go to most auctions, and you will find the contrary. Quality is recognized more often than not.

ER

lad.

cladking

Welcome aboard.

Many MS-60's are extremely unattractive and can also have rubs and various other
problems. Even modern US coins can be very weakly struck from misaligned and
highly worn dies and be considered MS-60. But this grade has a very wide range
of quality and the best ones will measure up to the British definition of uncirculated.

Many US collectors of British and other world coins are not aware of the vast grading
differences and sometimes overpay for material. Some of the differences between
the various grading patterns are taken into account with pricing but this is not con-
sistent from one country to another.

If you have any interest in British and other world coins be sure to check out our
"darkside" forum. (world and ancient coin forum)

Myqqy

Welcome aboard! What types of coins are you currently collecting? And does the UK have any grading companies like we have in the states?

Hedger

Welcome to the boards chap!

Taikonaut

The UK dont have any grading companies, thankfully. The condition of coins here are based on what is commonly acceptable in the collectors community, its not decided by any grading company which are open to biassness and inconsistancies as I am sure even the most reputable do fall foul. How often do we see several similarly graded coin can be totally different in condition you have to ask yourself something is seriously wrong and the only sensible thing is to throw the whole "company grading" theory out of the window. Is it really worth the paper its written on? I tend to look at the coin and based my own judgement, if its a rare coin I may need a certificate to say its genuine but I really doubt there is a real need of a certificate from an independent company telling me what grade it is.

kryptonitecomics

I understand where you are coming from, but you would shut the door on a lot of new collectors if you "throw the grading companies out" so to speak as not everyone can grade coins.

If you want to compare the top TPG's like PCGS and NGC to your regular run of the mill dealers I would imagine that you are going to find more consistancy with the grading companies since they see so many more coins. Are they perfect....no...but that's why you buy the coin and not the holder.

For me I like to collect Toned coins.....I am far from an expert on what type of toning is natural and what type is manufactured in a lab. For me the TPG's offer added assurance that the coin is market acceptable so therefore I would pay more in a lot of cases for a certified coin vs raw if the coins were in the same grade.

Good luck with your collecting and welcome to the boards!!!!

cladking

<< <i>The UK dont have any grading companies, thankfully. The condition of coins here are based on what is commonly acceptable in the collectors community, its not decided by any grading company which are open to biassness and inconsistancies as I am sure even the most reputable do fall foul. How often do we see several similarly graded coin can be totally different in condition you have to ask yourself something is seriously wrong and the only sensible thing is to throw the whole "company grading" theory out of the window. Is it really worth the paper its written on? I tend to look at the coin and based my own judgement, if its a rare coin I may need a certificate to say its genuine but I really doubt there is a real need of a certificate from an independent company telling me what grade it is. >>



It's not so much the concept of third party grading that causes wide
discrepancies in similarly graded coins it is that collectors are asking
the grading companies to price their coins rather than grade it. It's
hardly surprising that similarly priced coins can vary greatly in their
characteristics.

It's collectors who need to change. We need to demand that coins are
graded and let the grading companies issue price reports.

xbob

In regard to the 1933 Saint Gaudens:
I'm sure it will never reside in a grading company slab, however in this one case PCGS must have had a chance to grade it. If you look at the price list the only '33 Saint is in the MS65 column. Since it's a unique coin in the market the grade is certainly irrelevant (but interesting none the less).

Edit: I forgot to say... WELCOME!!

carl

One thing about the USA is the grading organizations let you know if a coin is for real. We have people here called counterfeiters, forgers, crimainals, etc. that have a habit of making thier own coins and paper money to match what our government thinks only they should be doing. This makes it difficult to find a rare coin that the government made. So we have these organizations that check for the real thing, grade the thing and let you know if it's been cleaned like PCGS for instance. If there is a slight differenciation in the grade of a coin from one organization to the next it usually is very insignificant at least for me. With raw coins I have seen many, many variations as to the grade of the coin pending the person selling one and the grade may vary pending if it's at a coin show, dealers store or flea market. Grading coins sometimes is like selling a car. People will tell all the good qualities of a car and sort of forget the problems they've been having. Same with a house, boat, truck and yes even coins. I once bought a slabbed cent that was graded VF-20. A few friends said it should have been F-12. I think it is about G-4. So in the UK who knows what it would be if I can't get an actual grade here but I don't care because it's part of a collection now and the grade no longer matters.

prooflike

Lately, I have become fond of the AU coins, 'specially the ones which look nicer than the lower grade mint states.

Cheaper too!

SFDukie

Welcome!
Curious re your username. Are you a fan of Chinese sapce travel?
Don

Neptune

TheRaven

I think you discount the feeling of security that people have when they buy certified coins from a company like NGC or PCGS. You know the coins are real and that there is a general accepted grade on that coin, which makes people that have not been around for decades buy coins that they are not likely to purchase just raw.

The only way I like to purchase old gold (pre-33) is certified in slabs.

If they are not apart of the European coin market the dislike of them in understandable in my opinion.