Chicago show observations Mr. Mint and more...
goudeygold
Posts: 701 ✭
Well, I did the chicago show again this past weekend and here are my observations:
MR. MINT:
He had his dark tan and his usual booth set up front center. This time he had 8X10 high quality photos of his trademark smile and fist full of benjis. I didn't see a single person take one though. I stood around looking at the Mastro booth (saw my 3rd honus wagner T206, and my first PSA 2) and he did it!! Mr Mint stood up and started yelling at some old guy that walked in the show carrying a bag. "You got something to sell?! Hey you!! You selling something?!" The man stops and looks at him and says "uh, no" Mr. Mint says "Oh, You looked like you had something to sell me!" I rolled my eyes and thought... what a dip. Later in the day I did see him with a box the size of 2 shoe boxes filled with cards probably in EX condition someone did sell him. Noticed some 52 topps low numbers and a bunch of non-sports vintage cards. WEIRD, is all I can say.
VINTAGE:
Searching for those elusive 38 Goudeys I found 3 dealers that had any. 707, shoelessjim, and another guy that only had raw. 707 had a single common I needed at PSA 5. Asking $125. Looked like a low grade 5, so I asked if they could work with the price since SMR was only $75. His best offer was "Pay with cash and take $5 off" Uh... nevermind. His 34 Goudeys were also around 50 to 100% over book at the 5 level and the prices were so high it wasn't even worth asking. These weren't PSA 6-7+, they were PSA 4-5 semi stars. So he ended my purchase streak from him to 3 shows. I honestly think he really doesn't care if he sells anything, or atleast not the low dollar cards in the 100-200 range. shoelessjim was pretty much 150% of SMR. There seemed to be a pretty big selection in the 50s sets, with a vast majority being raw. Again I think the cost of grading still isn't worth it unless your getting 6-7 or better. Just a generalization based on observation. For the most part semi stars and stars in pre-war vintage had asking prices well over SMR. Poking around there was little negotiation. Again maybe these are teasers to get you to look and dealers really are just holding until they find the desperate buyer. Or maybe these are indeed near market prices. Who knows. I did have 2 dealers tell me they simply are not getting any opportunities to buy pre-war in decent condition anymore. I also noticed some guy was selling saw dust from the cutting of a babe ruth bat in sealed packets for $20. I thought that was kind of a gimmicky idea using vintage for a change.
MODERN:
Still seems a bit saturated unless your selling only sealed boxes. The handful of unopened wholesalers were pretty busy and had a crowd. On the other hand a vast majority of modern only dealers seemed to have little activity. I did notice the Heritage boxes were $70. I also noticed that signs for 50%, 60% and even 70% off "high beckett" prices were pretty standard as well. One dealer had a table with "game used and autographed cards" divided in $5, $8, and $10 boxes. There were plenty of autographed cards to be had. Nothing great i'm sure, but still autographed numbered cards.
Autograph Guests:
Not as many as in the past, but Barry Sanders and Dan Marino had insanely long lines. Rodman also had a pretty good following.
GAI:
They didn't seem to be as busy grading cards this time, but they are absolutely increasing their presence for vintage. There were tons of GAI graded cards that looked very nice. More than in the past thats for sure.
PSA:
Had much more table space this time and was MUCH easier to actually sit down and fill out a submission form. Tested the "crossover" service for same day and the turnaround time was 1 1/2 hours. Sent it in the slab GAI 6 to cross to PSA 6 and they didn't do it. Another guy next to me tried the same thing with a GAI 8 53 Bowman and was rejected. Joe Orlando actually was there and I talked with him for a few minutes about this crossover business. He stated PSA "generally can get a good enough look at the card" through the case, and hinted that cracking it out first wouldn't be much of a benefit. He also stated that PSA sometimes will mark the case for obvious flaws if the minimum grade wasn't met. I asked him to personally take a look at my reject and he did. He then offered to go over it with the grader for more of an explanation on why it didn't cross. When he came back it was "the grader felt due to this corner the card is more inline with a 5" This isn't fact as I have 6s from the same set that look worse. Even so if you have 2 corners as a 7, one as a 6, and one as a 5 with perfect centering and registration is this really a 5? Also I overheard him saying the exact same thing to the guy with the GAI 8 crossover that failed. "this corner is a bit too touched" Personally I think the bias is indeed there (as everyone says on the boards as far as crossovers go) since crossing it is essentially saying GAI is "correct" and that isn't good business. However, I was VERY impressed with Joe and him taking the time to sit and talk for a few minutes. He actually seems like a very decent guy and has lost some weight since his photo that appears in the SMR.
SGC:
I saw very little from them. Aside from a decent percentage of tobacco cards in SGC cases, SGC was pretty much MIA. Since I mainly look for vintage, I cannot recall seeing even a single BVG holder.
All in all it was a decent show. Not nearly as crowded as in the past, and plenty of eye candy. There were 2 different PSA 8 1952 topps Mantles there, as well as some very nice Babe Ruth cards including a PSA 8 Sport King. (As a note, 707 has a 52 Mantle that is almost cut down to the size of a T206 card, is creased and its $895). Another bonus was that the Mary Kay convention was in the room next door so there was plenty of MILF eye candy walking to the show and back to the parking lot!! HEHEHE
GG
Mystery card:
Probably one of the most interesting cards I've ever seen was an old Max Schmelling boxing card that had thick white borders and a solid red background. He was in his boxing stance and in the top left corner was a huge swastika. Does anybody know what this one is from? He was asking $700 for it.
MR. MINT:
He had his dark tan and his usual booth set up front center. This time he had 8X10 high quality photos of his trademark smile and fist full of benjis. I didn't see a single person take one though. I stood around looking at the Mastro booth (saw my 3rd honus wagner T206, and my first PSA 2) and he did it!! Mr Mint stood up and started yelling at some old guy that walked in the show carrying a bag. "You got something to sell?! Hey you!! You selling something?!" The man stops and looks at him and says "uh, no" Mr. Mint says "Oh, You looked like you had something to sell me!" I rolled my eyes and thought... what a dip. Later in the day I did see him with a box the size of 2 shoe boxes filled with cards probably in EX condition someone did sell him. Noticed some 52 topps low numbers and a bunch of non-sports vintage cards. WEIRD, is all I can say.
VINTAGE:
Searching for those elusive 38 Goudeys I found 3 dealers that had any. 707, shoelessjim, and another guy that only had raw. 707 had a single common I needed at PSA 5. Asking $125. Looked like a low grade 5, so I asked if they could work with the price since SMR was only $75. His best offer was "Pay with cash and take $5 off" Uh... nevermind. His 34 Goudeys were also around 50 to 100% over book at the 5 level and the prices were so high it wasn't even worth asking. These weren't PSA 6-7+, they were PSA 4-5 semi stars. So he ended my purchase streak from him to 3 shows. I honestly think he really doesn't care if he sells anything, or atleast not the low dollar cards in the 100-200 range. shoelessjim was pretty much 150% of SMR. There seemed to be a pretty big selection in the 50s sets, with a vast majority being raw. Again I think the cost of grading still isn't worth it unless your getting 6-7 or better. Just a generalization based on observation. For the most part semi stars and stars in pre-war vintage had asking prices well over SMR. Poking around there was little negotiation. Again maybe these are teasers to get you to look and dealers really are just holding until they find the desperate buyer. Or maybe these are indeed near market prices. Who knows. I did have 2 dealers tell me they simply are not getting any opportunities to buy pre-war in decent condition anymore. I also noticed some guy was selling saw dust from the cutting of a babe ruth bat in sealed packets for $20. I thought that was kind of a gimmicky idea using vintage for a change.
MODERN:
Still seems a bit saturated unless your selling only sealed boxes. The handful of unopened wholesalers were pretty busy and had a crowd. On the other hand a vast majority of modern only dealers seemed to have little activity. I did notice the Heritage boxes were $70. I also noticed that signs for 50%, 60% and even 70% off "high beckett" prices were pretty standard as well. One dealer had a table with "game used and autographed cards" divided in $5, $8, and $10 boxes. There were plenty of autographed cards to be had. Nothing great i'm sure, but still autographed numbered cards.
Autograph Guests:
Not as many as in the past, but Barry Sanders and Dan Marino had insanely long lines. Rodman also had a pretty good following.
GAI:
They didn't seem to be as busy grading cards this time, but they are absolutely increasing their presence for vintage. There were tons of GAI graded cards that looked very nice. More than in the past thats for sure.
PSA:
Had much more table space this time and was MUCH easier to actually sit down and fill out a submission form. Tested the "crossover" service for same day and the turnaround time was 1 1/2 hours. Sent it in the slab GAI 6 to cross to PSA 6 and they didn't do it. Another guy next to me tried the same thing with a GAI 8 53 Bowman and was rejected. Joe Orlando actually was there and I talked with him for a few minutes about this crossover business. He stated PSA "generally can get a good enough look at the card" through the case, and hinted that cracking it out first wouldn't be much of a benefit. He also stated that PSA sometimes will mark the case for obvious flaws if the minimum grade wasn't met. I asked him to personally take a look at my reject and he did. He then offered to go over it with the grader for more of an explanation on why it didn't cross. When he came back it was "the grader felt due to this corner the card is more inline with a 5" This isn't fact as I have 6s from the same set that look worse. Even so if you have 2 corners as a 7, one as a 6, and one as a 5 with perfect centering and registration is this really a 5? Also I overheard him saying the exact same thing to the guy with the GAI 8 crossover that failed. "this corner is a bit too touched" Personally I think the bias is indeed there (as everyone says on the boards as far as crossovers go) since crossing it is essentially saying GAI is "correct" and that isn't good business. However, I was VERY impressed with Joe and him taking the time to sit and talk for a few minutes. He actually seems like a very decent guy and has lost some weight since his photo that appears in the SMR.
SGC:
I saw very little from them. Aside from a decent percentage of tobacco cards in SGC cases, SGC was pretty much MIA. Since I mainly look for vintage, I cannot recall seeing even a single BVG holder.
All in all it was a decent show. Not nearly as crowded as in the past, and plenty of eye candy. There were 2 different PSA 8 1952 topps Mantles there, as well as some very nice Babe Ruth cards including a PSA 8 Sport King. (As a note, 707 has a 52 Mantle that is almost cut down to the size of a T206 card, is creased and its $895). Another bonus was that the Mary Kay convention was in the room next door so there was plenty of MILF eye candy walking to the show and back to the parking lot!! HEHEHE
GG
Mystery card:
Probably one of the most interesting cards I've ever seen was an old Max Schmelling boxing card that had thick white borders and a solid red background. He was in his boxing stance and in the top left corner was a huge swastika. Does anybody know what this one is from? He was asking $700 for it.
0
Comments
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
loth
"I won't sell my GE stock for less than $60."
"But sir, market price for GE is $35.82"
"Don't care. If you pay me in cash I'll sell it to you for $55 a share. Take it or leave it."
I guess as long as there's some hammerhead that'll pay 150% to 200% he'll be OK. Seems like a losing strategy to me (but what do I know).
Thanks for the MILF visual. Eek!
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
I find it interesting that a number of vintage cards have shown up in GAI 9.5 Gem recently. Sometimes there isn't even 1 PSA 10 in the POP. If the card is really that good then why let it be graded by the newbie grading company when PSA sets the standards. If the card can't be crossed to a PSA 10 (regardless if YOU want to cross it or not) then in reality it is only a PSA 9.
I have noticed that dealers have most all their vintage graded 150% of SMR. One guy even told me that he wouldnt come down on price because there are people out there buying the stuff and would never sell on ebay...but I dont think I saw him make a sale the entire show. Maybe it's their way of fighting the ebay market? I just dont see them winning that fight.
Great observations GG. Did you see much unopened 60s and 70s stuff? If so, how were those prices?
If you're going to start a thread, at least have the decency to elaborate a little on what you're talking about...
JUST KIDDING
GG
PS: sorry about the lengthly post, but I wanted to lay it all out one time instead of in bits and pieces.
I was in my local card shop Saturday and the dealer and I were looking at an old Dodger set of his, jumping from price guide to price guide and trying to determine the correct year of issue, etc. when a spindly old guy walks in and says something like sounds like you guys are talking about my favorite stuff, I'm looking to buy a '59 or '58 complete baseball set. The dealer stopped IN MID-SENTENCE with me and swung into action. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do; I respect him for that.
BTW: the scarce '56 Adventure card #86; way overpriced in my opinion, however the card was pulled because of the swastika:
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
GG
Many of these Schmeling cards are off center like this; there are plenty of these cards out there which is why I think they are over priced. You see 99/100 card sets offered all the time (no #86), and they go for less than what dealers want for the Schmeling card alone. The set is pretty decent; it has cards of Sugar Ray and Harry Agannis, as well as all the heavyweight champions from Sullivan to Marciano. They are all often found with centering problems and were issued by Gum Inc.
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
Although I don't care for Bowman/Bowman Chrome/Topps, etc, the modern sets were very rare to find. I guess it simply reflects current buyer behavior?
I will agree that SGC was MIA at the show as was BGS.
I was pleased with the autograph guests on Sunday. Stan Musial, Ryne Sandberg, Wade Boggs, Gaylord Perry, Bob Feller, Harmon Killebrew, Lou Brock, and Carlton Fisk were there among others.
I got Bob Feller and Harmon Killebrew and thought they were the nicest guys with some of the nicest signatures in the business.
Remember these Chuck Norris Facts
1. When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn't lifting himself up, he's pushing the Earth down
2. According to Einstein's theory of relativity, Chuck Norris can actually roundhouse kick you yesterday
3. There are no such things as lesbians, just women who have not yet met Chuck Norris
Are you going to take that card that was rejected for crossover and send it in to PSA after cracking it out? I am willing to bet it will get the same grade or better. There is something about trying to cross GAI card in GAI holders to PSA.
Their prices on a lot of things are on the high side in comparision to ebay, but they certainly aren't the highest. And with only 3 dealers at a major show selling '38's can you blame him for being high? SMR is a guide, and on vintage is it way off. If anyone priced pre War at those prices they'd have no inventory in a matter of minutes.
Your experiences of the GAI crossover echoed mine, and obviously have nothing to do with the card and everything to do with the label. Did you see if a grader was actually consulted?
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Chris
As for 707 and any other dealer....people have good and bad experiences. If someone had a truely bad experience, its their right to slam them as long as their expectations were realistic.
I peronally like to hear both the good and bad experiences of any major player in the hobby.
And thanks for the notes from the show!! Cant wait for the nationals!
<< <i>JUST TAKE A LOOK AT 707'S E-BAY FEEDBACK, IT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. THEY ARE IN MY OPINION, PROFESSIONAL, COURTEOUS AND PATIENT PEOPLE TO DEAL WITH AND HAPPEN TO OPERATE A SUCCESFUL BUSINESS THAT REQUIRES CERTAIN MARGINS. EVERYONE LIKES TO CRITICIZE THOSE WHOM THEY WISH THEY COULD MIMMICK FOR SOME REASON. IF YOU BUY / INVEST IN STOCKS, DO YOU DESERVE TO BE SLANDERED IF YOU BUY LOW/SELL HIGH? FIGURE IT OUT!!!!
Oww my eyes hurt...
As far as margins, you can run a successful business making money without being a jerk about it. The underlying theme I find with regards to 707 is they are rude and short with you, regardless of the transaction.
Yes you need to buy low and sell high, but to insult people with ridiculous buy and sell offers is just bad business.
Sounds to me like every other show I've been to in the last few years - Mr. Mint is obnoxious, graded cards sell (or don't sell) for anywhere near the Ebay reality market price. And, 707 acts like they are doing you a favor by showing you cards, and then asking insane prices for said cards. I realize they may be professional to many, but in my personal experience, if all dealers ran their tables like that, I would be looking for a new hobby. Who needs it? For the record, I have approached his table many times, with pockets full of cash - and walked away still with pockets full of cash. That is a sign that there is something wrong with your business model.
<< <i> For the record, I have approached his table many times, with pockets full of cash - and walked away still with pockets full of cash. That is a sign that there is something wrong with your business model. >>
With all due respect, this is an untenable logical leap. What it's a sign of is the buyer's unwillingness to meet the seller's asking price. And with a seller who has been in business as long as Levi has, you can make a safe logical conclusion that he sells his goods for the prices he wants. There is nothing wrong with 707s business model. 99% of the dealers out there wish they had his volume.
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
I also agree with the statement that his inventory would be wiped out if he sold for SMR. With the opinion generally being that it is harder and harder for dealers to buy decent pre-war it makes logical sense to jack it up and sit on it.
GG
PS: The card I tried to cross was brought by me for a friend. He says he may crack it out, or just keep the GAI case. If you think about it, PSA has ZERO incentive to cross anything in the case for an even grade. If they do they are saying GAI is accurate, and if they don't and you crack and resend they will get your grading money twice! So again I'm really not surprised at all.