How do you authenticate trade dollars?

construct

With the scare about highly deceptive fake trade dollars, the dealers around here have pretty much quit carrying raw trade dollars. I see even fewer certified examples. The scans on ebay are not detailed enough to be helpful. I understand there is not a comprehensive book on trade dollars.

Still, some folk seem to be able to do authenticate them with enough certainty that they're willing to lay down cash on the basis of their own judgment.

I've search the threads here, and all I've found was the pairings of Type I and Type II obverses and reverses with the appropriate dates. Sure, that will weed out the obvious fakes, but surely the counterfeiters got the pairings right at least part of the time. And several years used both types of obverses and reverses--1875, 1876. You can't authenticate those years just on the obverse and reverse types.

Where do I start?

Dabigkahuna

I would like to see a book on the subject also.

I am finding that the weight is often the best indicator, aside from the more obvious cast and other fakes that you can see close up.


Larry
Dabigkahuna

KurtHorn

One of the most precise methods is a specific gravity test. But you should also check basic weight, diameter, thickness etc.

construct

Well, yes, I have seen cast counterfeits being sold for $5 a piece out of buckets. They wouldn't fool anybody with reasonably good eyes.

I saw an article from Coin World that came out a couple of years ago that showed some diagnostic marks on some known fakes, but the pictures weren't very clear. Anyway, wouldn't it be better to know diagnostics of genuine pieces? I mean new hubs could be made from fresh coins at any time, and for those, you'd need a whole new set of diagnostics for the new fakes.

Ryana

All of the counterfeits I've seen have a circulated look. I don't think it would be possible to properly simulate mint luster by casting.

With counterfeits the coin will usually be lacking details but it won't be from wear. Often there are weird irregularities with the rims or denticles. The reeding may be poorly done. The fields may have raised lines or other roughness. The coin may be under or overweight. If it is cast, it won't ring the same way when balanced on your finger and tapped LIGHTLY with a pen or pencil. Of course there are also die diagnostics as well.

construct

Well, yes Ryan. You're right about the cast counterfeits. Everything you mentioned would work well for those. My concern is with the struck counterfeits. I was reading on-line about the reeding being wider on fakes, but I have seen no comparison photos.

One of the dealers at the coin show today told me about one trade dollar that two dealers puzzled over until they finally submitted it to a TPGS. It turned out to be authentic, but they couldn't tell for sure until they got it back.

ER

Maybe TDN will write a book on it.

keoj

I've considered writing a book on the series as well. Here's what to look for....

- Type I/II obverse and reverse pairings for ALL years (ie Type II/II obverse/reverse can't happen for a 1874)
- Weight
- Reeding
- Mintmark type......this one is pretty subtle and you need to know your Trade Dollars well but there are some types of mintmarks that don't occur in some years (like a micro S for a 1875-S Type I/I)
- Very subtle diagnostics.......that Miss Liberty has a bump on her index finger (holding the LIBERTY ribbon) for all Type I and IIL obverses
- As noted, cast counterfiets are a little easier to spot (some are quite porous). I have a cast counterfiet of a Japanese Trade dollar that is scary good (including the reeding)

There are a few more but unfortunately, you could never see these without a loupe which rules out eBay. Never buy a raw Trade Dollar on eBay.

Hope this helps.

keoj

construct

Thanks. Yes, it helps. I bought a raw 1876-S Type I/I in AU-53 yesterday. I think it's all right. The dealer I bought it from is almost obsessive about authentication. But if I'm going to seriously collect these coins (and I really find them fascinating), I'm going to have to become seriously knowledgable about them.

My 1875-S Type I/I has the same large S mint mark as the 1876-S that I just bought. The reeding on the two coins is the same. Everything looks good so far. I think I'm going to submit them both to ANACS soon (along with my raw gold) so I can benefit from the TPGS authentication.

Thanks for the help. Any other comments would be appreciated I'm sure. Surely I'm not the only member who is concerned about this series.

clw54

Shirohniichan is very knowledgable about Trade Dollars.

construct

Oh, and Good Evening, Mr. Claw. I have missed your smiling face over on the Open Forum.

Yes, Shiroh is quite knowledgable and I hope his snakey self will reply to my thread sometime.

sumnom

I have seen some very, very good struck copies of Japanese and Chinese silver over the last year or so. I very nearly bought a stunning mid-Meiji 50-sen peice until I picked the thing up and realized right away that it was fake. Fake but beautiful. It has gotten to the point where there are a fair number of very good fakes out there running about.

I look forward to Shiro's comments.