Pope Pius VI Coin 1800

melis

Hello i have a pope Pius VI coin dated 1800. On One side it has a Crest and on the other a women and italian words with the inscrption g. hamerani. Does anyone know anything about this coin. I cant seem to find out any info on it and i would really some. Thanks. Melissa

elverno

Welcome to the Darkside Melissa!

Someone will cruise by here soon with more info but I assume this is a silver coin? And what size is it?
If no one else answers you I'll look it up this evening when I get to my books.

melis

Hello, thank you for your response. It is large much bigger then a quarter and yes it is silver. Sorry i am new at this I have found other pope pius coins but not this this particular pope. Thanks, Melissa

MSD61

Hello Melissa,

Sounds like you have a Papal medal and not a coin Melissa. I can tell you that g. hamerani is most likely Gioacchimo Hamerani. He came from a long line of medal and silversmiths that the church used for the making of Papal medals. His family is like a dynasty in the in this field and the Hameranis produced medals for kings and for the church. Gioacchimo also did a medal for the Cardinal of York Henry Benedict Maria Clement Stuart and other pieces. I can sure bet you that some body here can give you a clear answer than myself!

PS: Welcome to the forum!!!

trozau

1jester

Welcome, Melissa!

Askari knows a lot about medals; perhaps he will answer soon. Also, farthing and a few others could shed some dark on the matter.

AuldFartte

to the Forum, Melissa.

Enjoy !!!

FC57Coins

Hi Melissa - does your coin/medal have a date and a denomination?

melis

Hello, now i am home not at work, so i can tell you a little more about the medal. It has the words SVPRA FIRMAM PE TRAM 1800 then G.HAMERANI There is a woman on the front holding two keys(i think) sitting on a cloud. The back of the metal has PIVS VI PON.M.AN.I with a crest. Around the outside edging i has some sort of design. It is pretty heavy and silver. I have found info on other popes but not this one I think there was a pope pius XXI.

melis

I tried to upload a pic, but i didnt work.

FC57Coins

The AN. I refers to the first year of his reign - it could either be a medal made to honor his coronation, or the first anniversary of his coronation

harasha

Pius VI died on August 29, 1799. What you describe sounds like Berman 3219, a silver Scudo.

Obv: Pius VII Pont M An I
Rev: Supra Firman Petram. The Church standing on a cloud.

melis

What is a Berman or a silver Scudo? Sorry i dont know. So if pope pius VI died 1799 they made the medal after his death?

harasha

Berman refers to Allen G. Berman's basic work, "Papal Coins." The coin described is assigned a number.
A scudo was the basic silver coin of the time, issued by the papacy.

If indeed your item reads Pius VI, it could be an error.

PuddlePirate

I just wanted to welcome you to the darkside I don't have any reference material for 1800 papal coins I'm sorry. I'm sure the others can help you out though.

melis

Thanks for all the nice welcomes!!

melis

Now that you mentioned it i looked at the metal more closely and it has another I, so its actually PIUS VII !! It is the only thing on the medal that is faded out. Eveything else is totally clear. Thanks!!

Askari

Welcome to the Forum, Melissa!! It seems the gang has already taken good care of you and your question! Your 1800 Scudo is indeed a coin, not a medal. A Scudo was a large silver coin; the Vatican ceased using it around the middle of the 19th century. Yours is the first of two varieties issued that year; the later one has "PIUS" instead of the old Latin "PIVS". Oh, and it is indeed Pius VI, not the VII. Although Pius VI died in 1799, the Vatican had probably already begun minting the 1800-dated coins or at least have the dies ready. In those days, it would not have been at all unseemly to use them. For one thing, it would have taken some time to assemble the Council of Cardinals to elect a new pope. Then, once he was elected, he would need to design his new papal coat of arms. Once that was done, new dies would have to be prepared with the new pope's name and armorial on it. Pius VI's successor, Pius VII, was elected in 1800 and the first Scudo of his reign was issued dated 1802 -- and versions would be marked as the 1st, 2nd and 3rd years of his reign, all dated 1802!

It's impossible to grade your coin without a picture, but its value depends on how well-preserved it is. According to my old 1997 Krause catalog for 18th century coins, it lists retail as $40 in Good (= well worn), $85 in Very Good, $150 in Fine, and $250 in Very Fine.

There are several ways you can tell whether you have a medal or a coin. First, a coin usually has a value and most often the denomination (like "dollar"). Second, with a medal, the design usually stands out in higher relief than is usual for a coin. Third, medals generally have "medal alignment" instead of "coin alignment" (although there are many exceptions). If you hold the item with your fingers at the top and bottom and rotate it to the other face, then if the other face is right-side up, that's "medal alignment", but if it's upside down, then it's "coin alignment.

elverno

Askari has answered your questions much better than I. All I can add is that Forrer mentions Gioacchimo Hamerani as medallist to Popes Pius VI and VII. He ends his notes on Hamerani with:

"Gioachino Hamerani's signature is found on some of the coins of Pius VI, the Roman Republic, 1798-1799, and Pius VII., also on medals of Cicero, 1799, etc."

melis

Hello, thank you for such an informative answer. There is no denomination on the coin. It does say PIVS not PIUS (Latian). I believe it has medal alignment too. Do you know how many were made? I am just wondering. Thanks!!

Askari

You're quite welcome, Melissa! Unfortunately, my source has no mintage numbers. Recordkeeping back then wasn't what it is today ... and often such information gets lost over the years.

The guidelines I gave you on medals vs. coins are general and there are many exceptions. They probably apply best from about 1850 on. Before then, coins usually didn't have denominations on them ... and before 1500 rarely even had dates!