PSA 11 ?

Knuckles

PSA 11

pandrews

stupid opinion..

downgoesfrazier

I can't disagree too much. As PSA's standards have slipped, so has the value of our collections. I think we've all gotten quite carried away with graded sportscards. The joke, in the end, is on us. A very expensive lesson. It's funny how many collectors, me included, have used the popular phrase "buy the card--not the holder". This has become "collecting 101" for the graded card participant. The logic is flawed. If we live by that motto, why do we need grades or holders at all? Why not just buy the card in the FIRST place? When I posed this question to another collector he said "I think that refers to cards within the same grade. Don't just buy any 8--buy the RIGHT 8. Or one that meets your standards..." I can do that without a holder. We continually seek validation from our peers and look at our grades as some extension of our perceived status within the collecting community. I have been purchasing cards that have eluded me in raw form in high-grade on eBay and off-line of late with detailed scans and sellers I'm familiar with. I need those credentials as I absolutely don't put very much stock in what the grading room turns out these days numbers-wise. Sad, but true. The more a collector learns about high-end cards, the less he wants or needs companies like PSA


dgf

pandrews

the guy wonders why more 9's and 10's are graded now than were a few years ago? thats a stupid question..

Onlypsahockey

I agree pan, a few years back a lot of ex+/nrmt stuff was sent in for grading. Now graded collectors know pretty much what a card will grade so only the best of the best gets submitted.

Perfect example I have a cherry '63 Topps Hockey raw set I bought a few years back with intent to have it graded. I took it out two weeks ago to send a bunch of singles in for the Feb. special. I pulled 16 cards to submit. Mind you this set is pack fresh. 66 cards and I only felt 16 were worthy of submission now.

Bob

downgoesfrazier

Hockey,
Great point. I understand.

...but, how do you explain a collector breaking 35 PSA 8's from 2.5 years ago and getting only 3 8's back...the rest 9's & 10's. I personally love Frank Smith's experiment with 75 Topps. My 77 experience was similar. What you say is true to a point. We are more educated these days--this much is quite true in most cases. The standards, however, seem to change as the grader turnover is tremendous. That coupled with the pressure to make everybody happy has PSA's hands tied. What was a great idea has gone south. It seems PSA has fewer troubles with the NM and lesser grade stuff. It's when the money gets involved on the newer issues that people like myself will get annoyed. A 1972 topps common, for a random example, in NM/MT 8 will likely eclipse grading fees. A 9 will do fairly well and a 10 may really make a splash. When inconsistency gets to a point where 8's are nicer than 9's and 9's are sharper and cleaner than 10's, and 8's get resubmitted and come back 10's (happened to me 6 times to date) the landscape falls out of balance. The cosmic tumblers fail to align and, alas, you're really pissed off.
It is what it is.

I hope to make things more collector-friendly (for modern guys building sets 1970-1990) with my own innovations this year on a very small scale, of course. Sleeving cards at 1.00 a pop with one standard so guys can trade and build sets inexpensively with high standards that remain consistent. This is getting into another thread...

dgf

Stone193

dgf
I don't have a lot of graded stuff and actually collect more stuff outside of cards. I am a big heritage collector for years and that's truly a 'collector' set - investors beware!

So my question is: which graded stuff has declined. I assume you are talking about more modern stuff - post 1969? After all, a PSA 8 52T set got flipped after about two years for 400 grand - originally sold for like 280? Not a bad increase.

I thought the original reason everyone jumped on the graded was because so much "bad" raw was out there? If you are alluding to the potential nightmare of a graded registry set and all the pop talk and everything...I can see where someone could get burned. Chasing a perceived 'rare' high grade common may come back and bite ya down the road?

Just curious what we are talking about here?
I think a good plan would be to buy graded cards with the understanding that, perhaps, if you had to crack them out, you still have value?

Finally, this conversation seems to make implications about the "investment" side of the hobby - of which I like to stand on the hobby side - well at least until I die - and then the family can fight over them!

your friend
Mike

bowdowntome

Actually, I find that post rather humorous, not because it's so ridiculous, but because I can actually see it happening.

I recall back in the late 70's or early 80's, a fictional story that was written and published in one of the sports collecting hobby papers of the day. It was basically about a boy who goes to a card show in the future time (10, 20 years or so) and sees things like "cards made from gold" (Oh my!) thick lucite blocks to store and display your cards in (ridiculous!).
This was before Action Packed came out with their gold cards in the early 90's and before card slabbing and even before screwdowns, I believe. The article poked fun at many things that could never happen because they were just too ridiculous sounding. Everyone got a chuckle out it. I myself was rolling on the floor laughing..........and now it's all come to pass.

I wouldn't be suprised if someone doesn't read that guys post, get a brainstorm and create the next "new thing". Why not? If Nigel Tufnel can have a guitar amplifier that goes to 11.................I'm just saying. And to this day I get a kick out of people who watch Spinal Tap and don't get it.

downgoesfrazier

Stone,
Yes. Basically all post-war has decreased--there are exceptions, but as a rule anything after 1960 most assuredly has seen its heyday come and go. The post '69 stuff is at an all-time low right now. It's hard to recoup grading fees on NM/MT examples and even MINT cards at times. In 1980's the GEM examples come and go without 5.00 minimums being met. 1952 Topps baseball is certainly the exception. Less than 1/1000 of 1% of collectors have the means to engage such an undertaking making that set, at this point, unrealistic as an example.

dgf

mudflap02

Stone193

<< <i>Stone,
Yes. Basically all post-war has decreased--there are exceptions, but as a rule anything after 1960 most assuredly has seen its heyday come and go. The post '69 stuff is at an all-time low right now. It's hard to recoup grading fees on NM/MT examples and even MINT cards at times. In 1980's the GEM examples come and go without 5.00 minimums being met. 1952 Topps baseball is certainly the exception. Less than 1/1000 of 1% of collectors have the means to engage such an undertaking making that set, at this point, unrealistic as an example.

dgf >>


So where does this leave us?
Are we at the cross roads? Keep'm raw? For many that have large amounts of dough tied up on graded, this can be a very touchy subject. I don't follow the priceguides that closely and pop report's don't get me excited - but if this stuff has dropped, why do so many people still participate in the Registry?

your friend
Mike

Knuckles

Bragging rights.

jrdolan

I believe the real value of grading is not so much the actual number, but rather in this era it allows cards to be bought and sold online or out of catalogs with some degree of confidence that the card has not been trimmed or otherwise doctored. The expert opinion on condition is almost a secondary benefit. You don't want to find out your "NM" 1956 Mantle is trimmed or recolored AFTER you receive it. Or to be blissfully ignorant.

On the other hand, if you buy all your cards in person and know what you're looking for, or if you have a reputable long-distance supplier who never sends you a trimmed card, then maybe you don't need grading. Me, I don't have a way to buy any decent vintage cards except online or in long-distance auctions. The scan and PSA's grade are all I have to go on. The scan might hide a multitude of sins, and maybe PSA misgrades once in awhile, but my chances of getting an original, untrimmed card that's close to the claimed grade are infinitely higher if it's been through PSA or SGC or GAI's hands.

PRO and it shady brethren, of course, are worse than raw, because with a PRO holder you know for SURE something is wrong.

downgoesfrazier

JR, I agree. You make very valid points. Those are the only reasons I can see to grade cards--particularily on vintage issues. I would still feel better purchasing an EX/MT 6 '34 Diamond Star than buying one listed as NM in a catalog from a dealer I am unfamiliar with. The issue for post '69 is getting to a dire state in terms of returns on grading fees, however.

Stone,
Keep 'em raw unless you wish to display them in a holder or have some other use. I have oodles of dough tied up in PSA product. Those oodles are gone forever. I have PSA's zeal for getting 5000 count submissions by awarding sub-par 10's in large quantities thus devaluing the 9's that are often stronger cards to thank for it. I've said this for two years now...third-party authentication has its place, as JR eluded to above, but registries and low-pop commons are an abuse of a good idea. Without any real way to apply a standard consistently, the system--a competitive one--is inherently flawed. With all of the mindless cert-number chasers out there, the real quality sets will be impossible to discern on paper. If "10" meant one thing and "9" meant something else and "8" was still another you'd have something. When 8's become 10's on different days, you don't.
What do you have for chasing flips? I believe it was a wise man named...knuckles, if I recall, who said...and I quote: "Bragging rights".

That's about it.

dgf

greenmonstaaaah

hey knuckles--just curious: that photo of the canadiens goalie---is that jose theodore during that game played outdoors a couple years back??????

SDavid

Is it predominantly commons where people have seen problems with consistency?

95% of the psa graded cards I've seen were either vintage star cards or modern rookie cards, and IMO the consistency has been very reasonable.

Knuckles

Yep.. From the Heritage Classic game that took place here in Edmonton 2003.

calleocho

while small time summiters like us might have trouble with Post-69 cards selling below grading fees, we have to remember that guys like DSL and 4SC get very nice price breaks on their summisions.

im not 100% sure but if you make a contract to summit a couple of thousand cards every month, you might get your price down to just 4 bucks, maybe even lower.

tennesseebanker

I still agree with this part of the story..........."big time PSA customers get the "breaks"..that's just business."