<< <i>Drysdale is well deserving of his Hall of Fame status. He was definitely a dominator. He and Koufax were the best 1-2 punch in the 1960's.
Sandy and Don shall forever be Hall of Famers. Guidry and McDowell can drool at their HOF shrines.
Incidentally, it's interesting that there are 20 Koufax Basic Set collectors in the Registry, second only to Nolan Ryan (at 31) among the pitchers. Guidry has 0. >>
<< <i>That's mighty neighborly of Mr. McLain, the best pitcher in the AL for the years 1968-1969.
I did not mean to imply that McDowell was the best pitcher in each and every one of the years 1964-1970, but only that, for that 7-year period in total, he was the best overall. >>
OK, I'll give you that, seeing as how McLain was essentially a rookie in 1964 and did nothing in 1970 because of injuries & suspensions. From 65-69, though, I'd give the nod to Denny.
James devised a system to give win shares to each player for a given season. I do not have the exact system in front of me but it is a way of ranking players based on their statistics and team wins. The 1998 Yankees, for example, won 114 games. They would have 342 win share points. Bernie Williams led the way with 28, while Derek Jeter had 27.
You can read about James win shares in Bill James a Historical Baseball Abstract or I believe he wrote a book that was all about win shares. Pebblyjack could have gotten the numbers from either book.
Pebblyjack - I think Koufax finished with 194 career win shares not 168. Guidry finished with 174. Pedro Martinez has the highest win share average with Lefty Grove second.
He is credited with 194 win shares, but 124 of them came in the period between 1963-66. It was that 4-year period of domination that got him elected to the Hall of Fame.
I'm lovin' this thread. Having seen all these dudes pitch, and in respect for all the points made, my opinion is (OK - who cares):
Koufax - HOF definite. Sicko if you saw him. Nobody as dominant. Drysdale - I don't like him in, when compared to other semi-stars. Guidry - just like seeing him get his due via Koufax comparisons. McDowell - sorry, no soup or HOF for you. Blyleven - put him in!! Tommy John - put him in also!!
Proud of my 16x20 autographed and framed collection - all signed in person. Not big on modern - I'm stuck in the past!
To the guy who says Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF.... Maybe you're right. This idea that we should admit a player solely because of his results is a bit skewed. Who cares that he was among the greatest of all time? Who cares that he had the best stuff of any pitcher who ever lived? What difference does it make that he absolutely dominated the game?
I think we put way too much emphasis on a player's ability. From now on let's go for longevity. Let's put Bobo Newsom in. Now there's a pitcher. Pitched for every team in the majors (a real plus) and pitched for 48 years in the majors. I know you're gonna pick on his .487 winning pct., but there you go again with that greatness crap.
Let's get those short-timers outta there. Greatness, my foot. Can you imagine we have enshrined the likes of Roy Campanella (10 seasons, 5-6 HOF seasons) and Ralph Kiner (10 seasons, 6-7 HOF seasons)? Let's dis-enshrine that part-timer, Koufax (12 seasons, 6 HOF seasons). And while we're at it, Let's yank Jackie Robinson (10 seasons 6-7 HOF seasons), too.
Time served, even in mediocrity, should be the proving point. Same with federal employees.
<< <i>To the guy who says Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF.... Maybe you're right. This idea that we should admit a player solely because of his results is a bit skewed. Who cares that he was among the greatest of all time? Who cares that he had the best stuff of any pitcher who ever lived? What difference does it make that he absolutely dominated the game?
I think we put way too much emphasis on a player's ability. From now on let's go for longevity. Let's put Bobo Newsom in. Now there's a pitcher. Pitched for every team in the majors (a real plus) and pitched for 48 years in the majors. I know you're gonna pick on his .487 winning pct., but there you go again with that greatness crap.
Let's get those short-timers outta there. Greatness, my foot. Can you imagine we have enshrined the likes of Roy Campanella (10 seasons, 5-6 HOF seasons) and Ralph Kiner (10 seasons, 6-7 HOF seasons)? Let's dis-enshrine that part-timer, Koufax (12 seasons, 6 HOF seasons). And while we're at it, Let's yank Jackie Robinson (10 seasons 6-7 HOF seasons), too.
Time served, even in mediocrity, should be the proving point. Same with federal employees. >>
- Dude, I like your style.
Mark (amerbbcards)
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
<< <i>I think we put way too much emphasis on a player's ability. From now on let's go for longevity. >>
So much sarcasm directed at...what? My point was not that Bobo Newsom should be in, but that members of the HOF should have BOTH ability and longevity.
Thought experiment: imagine Vida Blue is forced from the game by injury after his rookie year. Does he go in the HOF? His rookie year he was dominant with a capital D, won the Cy, the MVP, led the league in a dozen categories. Had a Koufax-like season. Welcome to the HOF, Mr. Blue!!!
No, you don't think he belongs in the HOF? How come? Not enough seasons? But according to cybrbrdr that doesn't matter. Oh wait, I forgot, OF COURSE IT MATTERS HOW MANY SEASONS HE PITCHED!! I found that fact in the baseball encyclopedia under "duh".
Personally, and exactly the opposite of the point attributed to me, I believe mediocre seasons should count very little if at all towards HOF induction. Accordingly, the way I see it, Koufax is a 6-year pitcher and doesn't deserve to go in. Obviously, I am in the minority with that opinion and I don't mind that. But where I am in disagreement with others is on the number "6"; others may think 6 is enough but everyone has a number.
For those of you, all of you, who think Koufax belongs in the HOF, what is your number? If you take away one of Koufax's last 6 seasons is he still in? Take away 2? 3? At some point, presumably, you have to say "sorry, Sandy, you didn't pitch long enough".
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Dallas, the HOF minimum is 10 years in the majors. Koufax pitched for 12. What is your minimum? 15? 20? Where do you draw the line? Personally I have no problem with 10.
<< <i>Dallas, the HOF minimum is 10 years in the majors. Koufax pitched for 12. What is your minimum? 15? 20? Where do you draw the line? Personally I have no problem with 10. >>
My question is not how many total seasons but how many of those seasons should be HOF caliber? Is 9 mediocre seasons and 1 great season enough? In that case open up the Hall to Blue, McDowell, Chance, Guidry and on and on. I don't think the number of mediocre seasons ought to matter. If you take away Koufax's first three pitiful seasons are you saying that ought to take Koufax out of the HOF? Well, you are saying that, but do you mean to say that?
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
<< <i>To the guy who says Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF.... Maybe you're right. This idea that we should admit a player solely because of his results is a bit skewed. >>
Why don't you try reading posts before you post inane garbage like this, in a vain attempt to impress readers with your uncanny 'wit' (and I'll use that word loosely here).
Under your reasoning, Terrel Davis should be immediately inducted. His results were truly phenomenal, who cares he only played for a few years, right?
Yes Koufax played 12 seasons...but only excelled for 6 years. Where do you draw the line? Should Terrel Davis of the Broncos get in now too? What about Thurman Munson? Where do you draw the line of excellence? Odds are very high Terrel Davis would have continued to rush for 1500+ yards per year...does he get in now? How about Bo Jackson?
My point of contention with Koufax's being in the hall is not his accomplishments; those speak for themselves. I just can't see enshrining someone who only excelled at the game for 5, maybe 6 years. I don't care the reasons for the career ending early (injury, quitting, etc.), 5 or 6 years of excellence, even dominance, just in my mind doesn't qualify as a HoF career.
Guys guys!!! Jumping on cyberblade isn't the deal here - this has been a very erudite discussion, but, with all due respect, haven't youse guys heard of satire? Over-exageration of the facts to make a point in a humorous manner? Saturday Night Live? Let's unclench for a second and just appreciate the laugh in the manner in which it was offered.
...okay - second's up. Who the f**k thinks Koufax oughta be out?
Mark (amerbbcards)
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
if 10 is minimum for HOF, which it is,then is the next standard that you must be HOF grade 1) 5 years during career or 2) 50% of your career? Whichever standard is chosen, who should be in and whow should be out? If you put Maz in for excelling in one facet --fielding-- then why not Wills or Staub or Olivia or Howard in for steals, pinching, average, or power??
Comments
<< <i>Drysdale is well deserving of his Hall of Fame status. He was definitely a dominator. He and Koufax were the best 1-2 punch in the 1960's.
Sandy and Don shall forever be Hall of Famers. Guidry and McDowell can drool at their HOF shrines.
Incidentally, it's interesting that there are 20 Koufax Basic Set collectors in the Registry, second only to Nolan Ryan (at 31) among the pitchers. Guidry has 0. >>
I think you have a man crush on Guidry.
<< <i>That's mighty neighborly of Mr. McLain, the best pitcher in the AL for the years 1968-1969.
I did not mean to imply that McDowell was the best pitcher in each and every one of the years 1964-1970, but only that, for that 7-year period in total, he was the best overall. >>
OK, I'll give you that, seeing as how McLain was essentially a rookie in 1964 and did nothing in 1970 because of injuries & suspensions. From 65-69, though, I'd give the nod to Denny.
Tabe
Sam McDowell - 107 win shares
Denny McLain - 107 win shares
Dean Chance - 106 win shares
Mel Stottlemyre - 106 win shares
Jim Kaat - 101 win shares.
If you count 1963-70, the top 5 looks like this:
Dean Chance - 118 win shares
Sam McDowell - 108 win shares
Denny McLain - 108 win shares
Gary Peters - 106 win shares
Jim Kaat - 106 win shares
Mel Stottlemyre 106 win shares.
So, in that period, it looks as though McDowell was as good as anyone else in the AL.
Finally, for perspective, Sudden Sam had 166 career win shares, Koufax had 168, and Drysdale had 258.
Just some food for thought.
Thanks
Randy
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
You can read about James win shares in Bill James a Historical Baseball Abstract or I believe he wrote a book that was all about win shares. Pebblyjack could have gotten the numbers from either book.
Pebblyjack - I think Koufax finished with 194 career win shares not 168. Guidry finished with 174. Pedro Martinez has the highest win share average with Lefty Grove second.
Koufax did have 194 win shares. I was looking at only his totals from the 1960s.
Thanks
Randy
He is credited with 194 win shares, but 124 of them came in the period between 1963-66. It was that 4-year period of domination that got him elected to the Hall of Fame.
Thanks
Randy
Koufax - HOF definite. Sicko if you saw him. Nobody as dominant.
Drysdale - I don't like him in, when compared to other semi-stars.
Guidry - just like seeing him get his due via Koufax comparisons.
McDowell - sorry, no soup or HOF for you.
Blyleven - put him in!!
Tommy John - put him in also!!
Maybe you're right. This idea that we should admit a player solely because of
his results is a bit skewed. Who cares that he was among the greatest of
all time? Who cares that he had the best stuff of any pitcher who ever lived? What
difference does it make that he absolutely dominated the game?
I think we put way too much emphasis on a player's ability. From now on let's go
for longevity. Let's put Bobo Newsom in. Now there's a pitcher. Pitched for every
team in the majors (a real plus) and pitched for 48 years in the majors. I know you're
gonna pick on his .487 winning pct., but there you go again with that greatness crap.
Let's get those short-timers outta there. Greatness, my foot. Can you imagine we have
enshrined the likes of Roy Campanella (10 seasons, 5-6 HOF seasons) and Ralph Kiner (10 seasons,
6-7 HOF seasons)? Let's dis-enshrine that part-timer, Koufax (12 seasons, 6 HOF seasons).
And while we're at it, Let's yank Jackie Robinson (10 seasons 6-7 HOF seasons), too.
Time served, even in mediocrity, should be the proving point. Same with federal employees.
<< <i>To the guy who says Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF....
Maybe you're right. This idea that we should admit a player solely because of
his results is a bit skewed. Who cares that he was among the greatest of
all time? Who cares that he had the best stuff of any pitcher who ever lived? What
difference does it make that he absolutely dominated the game?
I think we put way too much emphasis on a player's ability. From now on let's go
for longevity. Let's put Bobo Newsom in. Now there's a pitcher. Pitched for every
team in the majors (a real plus) and pitched for 48 years in the majors. I know you're
gonna pick on his .487 winning pct., but there you go again with that greatness crap.
Let's get those short-timers outta there. Greatness, my foot. Can you imagine we have
enshrined the likes of Roy Campanella (10 seasons, 5-6 HOF seasons) and Ralph Kiner (10 seasons,
6-7 HOF seasons)? Let's dis-enshrine that part-timer, Koufax (12 seasons, 6 HOF seasons).
And while we're at it, Let's yank Jackie Robinson (10 seasons 6-7 HOF seasons), too.
Time served, even in mediocrity, should be the proving point. Same with federal employees. >>
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
<< <i>I think we put way too much emphasis on a player's ability. From now on let's go
for longevity. >>
So much sarcasm directed at...what? My point was not that Bobo Newsom should be in, but that members of the HOF should have BOTH ability and longevity.
Thought experiment: imagine Vida Blue is forced from the game by injury after his rookie year. Does he go in the HOF? His rookie year he was dominant with a capital D, won the Cy, the MVP, led the league in a dozen categories. Had a Koufax-like season. Welcome to the HOF, Mr. Blue!!!
No, you don't think he belongs in the HOF? How come? Not enough seasons? But according to cybrbrdr that doesn't matter. Oh wait, I forgot, OF COURSE IT MATTERS HOW MANY SEASONS HE PITCHED!! I found that fact in the baseball encyclopedia under "duh".
Personally, and exactly the opposite of the point attributed to me, I believe mediocre seasons should count very little if at all towards HOF induction. Accordingly, the way I see it, Koufax is a 6-year pitcher and doesn't deserve to go in. Obviously, I am in the minority with that opinion and I don't mind that. But where I am in disagreement with others is on the number "6"; others may think 6 is enough but everyone has a number.
For those of you, all of you, who think Koufax belongs in the HOF, what is your number? If you take away one of Koufax's last 6 seasons is he still in? Take away 2? 3? At some point, presumably, you have to say
"sorry, Sandy, you didn't pitch long enough".
<< <i>Dallas, the HOF minimum is 10 years in the majors. Koufax pitched for 12. What is your minimum? 15? 20? Where do you draw the line? Personally I have no problem with 10. >>
My question is not how many total seasons but how many of those seasons should be HOF caliber? Is 9 mediocre seasons and 1 great season enough? In that case open up the Hall to Blue, McDowell, Chance, Guidry and on and on. I don't think the number of mediocre seasons ought to matter. If you take away Koufax's first three pitiful seasons are you saying that ought to take Koufax out of the HOF? Well, you are saying that, but do you mean to say that?
<< <i>To the guy who says Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF....
Maybe you're right. This idea that we should admit a player solely because of
his results is a bit skewed. >>
Why don't you try reading posts before you post inane garbage like this, in a vain attempt to impress readers with your uncanny 'wit' (and I'll use that word loosely here).
Under your reasoning, Terrel Davis should be immediately inducted. His results were truly phenomenal, who cares he only played for a few years, right?
Yes Koufax played 12 seasons...but only excelled for 6 years. Where do you draw the line? Should Terrel Davis of the Broncos get in now too? What about Thurman Munson? Where do you draw the line of excellence? Odds are very high Terrel Davis would have continued to rush for 1500+ yards per year...does he get in now? How about Bo Jackson?
My point of contention with Koufax's being in the hall is not his accomplishments; those speak for themselves. I just can't see enshrining someone who only excelled at the game for 5, maybe 6 years. I don't care the reasons for the career ending early (injury, quitting, etc.), 5 or 6 years of excellence, even dominance, just in my mind doesn't qualify as a HoF career.
Guys guys!!! Jumping on cyberblade isn't the deal here - this has been a very erudite discussion, but, with all due respect, haven't youse guys heard of satire? Over-exageration of the facts to make a point in a humorous manner? Saturday Night Live? Let's unclench for a second and just appreciate the laugh in the manner in which it was offered.
...okay - second's up. Who the f**k thinks Koufax oughta be out?
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
But, now that that's out of my system, point taken.
Unclenched.
<< <i>-- then why not Wills or Staub or Olivia or Howard in for steals, pinching, average, or power?? >>
Which Howard? Elston? Frank? Ron?
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."