Odd bidder behavior on eBay - your thoughts?

RELLA

I was wondering what other eBay buyers and sellers would think of this "hypothetical" situation:

A no reserve auction has two early bidders place "reasonable" proxy bids during the first few days of a ten-day auction. After a few days the current high bidder (one of the two proxy bidders) retracts their bid with the reason "Entered wrong amount", but then proceeds to immediately place a slightly lower proxy bid that is a handful of bid increments below the high proxy bid of the other early bidder, leaving the other bidder as the current high bidder near, but not at, their high proxy bid. At this point there are still several days left in the auction, and the current high bid now sits at over three times what it would be at if not for the actions of the "bid, retract, then bid again" bidder. A fair market value for this item is difficult to pinpoint, but it is possible that the auction could end at the current price.

If you were the current high bidder, what would you think/do?

If you were the seller, what (if anything) would you think/do?

RELLA

coinlieutenant

That is a tough one...a bit confusing too as to motive...

FullStepJeffs

run away if buyer...

sell it and move on if seller...

But, somehow I think you're the first one by your post.

Steve

MAD4MORGANS

Interesting scenario. I'm assuming this is an eBay auction.

By posting this scenario It would seem you think you may be a victim of shill bidding...possibly.

It's hard to figure true motive here, but here are some other scenarios I could think of:

The other bidder:

-Actually made a mistake about the amount, retracted it, and then rebid to his maximum bid.
-Over-obligated his budget.
-Found something else and tried to divided his budget up and rebid multiple items.
-Realized the value of the item wasn't worth his original maximum bid..
-Found another item and dropped his bid back so he wouldn't have (another?) bid retraction on his bidding history (you might want to check out the other bidders bid history from his feedback profile on bid retractions).
-Dropped back his bid knowing someone else would overbid him to get him off the hook to go through with the sale.

---
It seems that if shill bidding was really going on here, it would be done close to the timeframe when you couldn't retract a bid (last 12 or 24 hours?...I forget). By getting out close to the deadline, the shill wouldn't get "stuck" with the item if no one else bid after him.

Since it's so early in the auction, I wouldn't suspect shill bidding unless the shill ("friend" or seller's other account) dropped his bid back to a level of the seller's "price acceptibility" setting an artificial "minimum reserve". But he could have set that initially when he set up the auction. So why go through the bother?

If you suspect that your being victimized, you could also retract your bid if it's still early enoough to get out.

---
To prevent being victimized by shill bidding, I don't place my maximum bid early in the auction. Rather, I bid late. This way if the bid's too high for my budget, I just move on. This allows me the flexibility to budget my money for another auction that may pop up.

(PS. I have retracted/lowered a few bids for "honest" reasons - wrong bid amount (fat fingers), couldn't make contact with seller, placed a stupid max bid, warned away from bogus sales...ect).

BAJJERFAN

If you bid the "wrong amount" the bid should be retracted immediately, not after several days. Then to go fishing to see what the other bidder's max is stinks to me. I would cancel all of his bids and block his AZZ.

UncleJoe

If I were the high bidder I would slap myself in the head and think "how many times do I have to read and be told that the ONLY way to bid on eBay is either Buy It Now or snipe." This way no one, shill or newbie or whoever, can mess with my bid. From now on I will ONLY Buy It Now or snipe.

If I were the seller I wait til the auction ends and sell it to the high bidder.

Joe.

braddick

Having examined the auction and the bidder who retracted I'd think it's safe to say the bidder might have had high bidders remorse. His top bid may have been much more than what it is now although the auction has only settled to a level that is about 10% of its high.

As far as believing the auction may now close at its current level?
I doubt it.
edited to add: Confirm my theory on how many 'watchers' you have for the item.

BAJJERFAN

Lotsa watchers doesn't necessarily translate into lots of bidders.

pocketpiececommems

I agree with Uncle Joe. Snipe It!

seanq

I can think of two honest reasons why this could have happened:

1) (this assumes the bidder who retracted and rebid was the first one in on the coin) Bidder placed a bid and didn't check the amount, when it confirmed it showed him as the high bidder at the opening price. Second bidder comes in and underbids, and that's when the first bidder sees he's still the high man at a value above what he thought he entered. He then retracts and rebids at his original amount.

2) The bidder wants to come back and snipe, and didn't want to be high bidder near the end and tip off his interest. I do know some folks who claim they have ebay "stalkers," so maybe your bidder was trynig to maintain a lower profile.

I sell a lot of the same stuff you do, so if you want to PM me the auction I may know something about one or both of the bidders in question.


Sean Reynolds

Robgetty

Seems like a shill to me.

I usually put a low bid in to "mark" the auction and then put my best bid
in at the end, so it wouldn't be as big of a concern to me.

dimples

I agree with bajjerfan Shill fishing out a bidders max bid and raising the bid artificially at the same time.

Quite a shrewd move I must say.

Dabigkahuna

All this time I thought a bidder couldn't bid again on the same item once their bid was canceled. No?



Larry
Dabigkahuna

Gandyjai

<<All this time I thought a bidder couldn't bid again on the same item once their bid was canceled>>

THEY SURE CAN!

I've had a bidder bid $10 and cancel it only to rebid again (@$10) THREE different times on three different days!
He also did similar bid retractions and rebids on several of my other auctions going on at the same time....Over
20 bid cancelations altogether!
I blocked his azz after that.

Brian

braddick

You guys should revisit the shill speculation as I believe you're wrong.
First, take a look at the bidder. He's a trusted board member here.
Secondly, think about what I posted above. Is it possible he placed a max bid he later became uncomfortable with? If so he cancelled it and replaced a lower (albeit, unsuccessful) bid. Not necessarily a cool move, but one that eBay allows.

PS: On a side note: it's a stunning set and one-of-a-kind as there were none to be offered at Long Beach, period, even as singles, raw.

With that authentic color and overall eye appeal and scarcity I see this as a $2,500.00 set, if not today, then certainly in the not to distant future.

seanq

Braddick - I haven't seen a link to the auction in question, and can't find it in this thread. Since you seem to know where it is... can you share?


Sean Reynolds

braddick

Check the LINK connecting you to Rella's eBay Store (provided at the bottom of all his posts). I'm not sure what the protocal is when the original writer of the Thread didn't do so himself.

relayer

A guy did that on an auction of mine recently.

It is an exploratory adventure to see what the high bidders max bid is so you know what you need to snipe it.

I blocked that bidder and saw in his feedback he had 195 bid retractions

RBinTex

Perhaps the original high bidder/bid retracter (hereafter OHB) dropped their bid to just below what the previous underbidder - now the new high bidder -(hereafter PUNT) has bid to provide a false sense of security to PUNT. In doing this they may have in their mind minimized the possibility that PUNT sees a need to snipe at the end. OHB might be hoping no one else advances the bid and now believes that they have an "amount certain" target to beat with a last second snipe.

The flaw in OHB's reasoning though is that there "might be" over 25 watchers on the "hypothetical" eBay auction & MANY more bids would certainly be coming out of the woodwork in days to come - especially the last few seconds of the auction.

Another, IMHO, less likely (although completely plausible) scenario is that OHB really did want out & felt bad to be the cause of such a large drop in the current high bid so placed new bid to allow the new high bid to be as close as possible to what the old high bid was before the retraction.

As Pat said, might be worth multiples of what OHB's underbid is at right now (& PUNT's current high bid as well).

Imagine only offering $600 for something like that.

BillJones

It looks like a shill to me.

A bidder who withdraws a bid should not be allowed to bid again on the same item unless they bid more than they did the first time. If this practice becomes common, eBay should do something about it.

RBinTex

"It looks like a shill to me."

I believe that's a misnomer. A shill is one that is in cahoots with the seller to RAISE prices. This bidder LOWERED the high bid/price. They MAY be manipulating the eBay bidding system to gain an advantage (i.e. finding out PUNT's high bid) but this is NOT shill bidding.

BillJones

<< <i>They MAY be manipulating the eBay bidding system to gain an advantage (i.e. finding out PUNT's high bid) but this is NOT shill bidding. >>



Well if "manipulating the eBay bidding system to gain an advantage" is not a shill activity, it certainly is a close relative of shilling. Just because it's takes more effort to do it and is a backdoor way of doing it does not make it ethical. And it does not escape the SHILL label so far as I'm concerned.

Punscoins

I would just let the auction go to the high bidder, but after the auction is over.......

Give that buyer the block!

Too much fishy business IMHO.

Marc Vetsch

seanq

I think what you're talking about is 'bid shielding'. The way it used to work, bidder A placed a low proxy bid followed by a second higher one, then bidder B would place a bid just below bidder A's second bid. This would inflate the current bid for the life of the auction, scaring off underbidders. Just before the auction would close, bidder B would retract his bid, reducing the amount of bidder A's bid to his earlier, lower proxy bid. eBay has all but eliminated this by not allowing retrations in the last 12 hours of an auction.

Edit: I finally found the auction in question. I think rbintex might have nailed it - the bidder felt bad about retracting and placed a second bid to make sure the underbidder was maxed out. There's no other reason given the timing of the two bids that makes any sense.


Sean Reynolds

RELLA

There is no link as the auction is still active...this isn't about promoting one of my auctions; thus the "hypothetical" nature of my first post. The auction that braddick and RBinTex are referring to is NOT the auction that I am referring to...although a similar situation occured in that auction.

I am the seller, not either of the bidders.

While I would agree that it is a relative of a shill (to the extent that shill bidding might look similar to this bidding activity) it certainly isn't a shill...to me shill bidding would be some effort on my part or in cooperation with me to artificially raise the final winning bid to a third party. I have had no contact with the retracting bidder nor is the retracting bidder working for/with me. Any "advantage" of a higher current price is incidental, and none of what is happening is taking place in order for me to make more money.

The retracting bidder placed their bid AFTER the current high bidder placed their proxy bid. The current high bidder is not accusing me of being or insinuating that I am using a shill...they are upset that their proxy bid has been "exposed" to anyone who was paying close attention to the auction. I think what has happened is also detrimental to me as the seller...potential bidders may have decided to focus their energy elsewhere due to the current "solid" price level, when a lower current price may have encouraged them to return and be "in the running" at the end of the auction.

I think that bidders who retract bids within a certain time frame should be allowed to place lower bids on the same item (to cover typographical errors on their part); but to come back a few days after the fact and retract a bid does open a can of worms in many cases if the bidder is then allowed to re-bid at a lower level...and also encourages blatant shill bidding IMO.

I think it is probable that the auction will close at a higher level than the current high bidder's proxy but it is by no means a certainty. Given the information in my posts; if you were in my shoes, what response/action would you take in answer to the concerns of the current high bidder re: their exposed proxy bid?

RELLA

Mikey

The bidder has retracted other bids in the past, which would lead me to a suspicious conclusion.

RBinTex

"Actually on Ebay once you retract a bid (as the bidder) you can no longer bid on that auction. ... The ebay system will not allow a new bid to placed. ... maybe the system is now different"

Not true & yes, if it ever was that way it is now different. You CAN rebid and are in fact REQUIRED to (IMMEDIATELY) if the reason you gave for retracting was that you entered the wrong bid amount - e.g. you entered 10000 instead of 100.00.

Regardless, no matter what reason you gave (1. the above, 2. can't contact the seller, or 3. description has changed) you can still rebid.

Rella,

Tell the high bidder that you'd be happy to cancel his bid for him (no negative implication for anyone - as far as eBay rules go) if he feels his bid is now "too high". He can then (if he choses) reenter a different bid. But of course, you might start a chain reaction with the next bidder down the list & so on...

nolimitz

looks like the same guy has done it twice to you? same dates even.

Dabigkahuna

All this time I thought a bidder couldn't bid again on the same item once their bid was canceled



I stand correted! I just had a bidder cancel his bid on one of my auctions with less than 12 hours to go. Then they bid again but on this auction they won the coin. Hmmmm?

It's kinda funny but even as an Ebay seller I would probablly never notice something like that unless it was pointed out to me.

This is a great thread!



Larry
Dabigkahuna