Do you submit coins with "bathroom buddies"

BigGreek

When I was a little kid we were assigned a bathroom buddy. When you went
to the bathroom, your buddy would always go with you.

So recently I've found myself submitting coins with buddies. If I have a marginal
65 coin, I'll submit it with a better 64 to make the 65 stand out. If I have a RB cent,
I'll submit it with a brown cent to make sure the RB look more red. I'll also always
place the buddy before the strong coin in the submission.

Am I nuts?

gemini12398

No, I think there might be something to that. I do it myself and it may have helped.

David

ss350camaro

I've heard of others including "set-up" coins in thier submissions, but never heard them called "bathroom buddies"

BigGreek

<< <i>No, I think there might be something to that. I do it myself and it may have helped.

David >>



I've also considered putting in a "tip" coin. A coin not on the list with
a little note: here this is for you, thanks for doing a great job


.. just kidding.

Shamika

<< <i> When I was a little kid we were assigned a bathroom buddy. When you went >>


What is that all about??? Was the teacher afraid somebody might fall in?

Concerning your submission stategy, I think it's a sound idea. I read somewhere of dealers following the same sort of tactics.

magikbilly

What would the value of any PCGS graded coin be if it could have been so easily influenced during grading by a "potty partner" (a new term to me too) or maybe another coin nearby? Either large influence or small or none at all, it still comes down to the coin and always will I hope.

Billy

mercurydimeguy

BigGreek, I've always had the most amount of success when sending in with setup coins (when possible)

In fact if I have a number of coins I'll typically break them up in to several orders to properly group them.

Sounds odd, but I think the simpler I make it for the graders to grade my batch the better grades I'll get -- for the most part this has worked out. There are the odd exceptions when a coin grades lower or a coin grades higher than I expected, but typically most are in line.

pharmer

When I have more than 1 of the same date/mintmark that I'm trying to get a 67 for, I send both or more, because the value of getting at least one makes up for paying for and cracking out any 66's that come back.

But I too want to hear more about the bathroom buddy thing. Was this a public school? What if the buddy didn't have to go, did he/she just watch, grab a quick smoke? How many buddies stayed together and are trying to get the marriage laws changed?

BigGreek

This was is 1st or 2nd grade in a big inner-city elementary
school. They didn't have attached bathrooms and you had
to go out into the hallway and walk across half the building
to get to one. They were always worrying about kids getting
into trouble or about perverts and stuff.

ddbird

I hit my bathroom buddy cuase he kept watching me take a piss and always tried to hold conversations with me.

XpipedreamR

Really? What did he try to talk about?

solid

Your buddy clearly violated Rule #24 of the Code of Men in this thread.

24. Never talk to a man in the bathroom unless you're on equal footing: both urinating or both waiting in line. In all other situations, a nod is all the conversation you need.

ms70

Now, what are the feelings behind using a set-up coin? Isn't this a moral issue in some way or another? It's certainly indisputable that
this is a method of influencing a grader's opinion but what makes this method ok?

I guess if it's a marginal coin that's really really marginal it's ok.

BigGreek

ms70,

I don't think its been established that this works, although alot of
folks (including myself) seem to think it works. It's possible I'm just
wasting money sending the "buddies" in.

I prefer not call them "setup" coins. That implies that graders can
be setup. I don't think that's the case. In fact one can argue that
the setup coin may hurt since it gives them recent precendence.
They see three 64s pass by and then see a maybe-65: just give it
another 64.

ms70

I just meant in general since this topic has been brought up before. Maybe I should've started a fresh thread on it. I do see the logic
but I thought the somewhat controversial end of it would make for good discussion.

mgoodm3

I just submit the coins I have. I'm not sophisticated enough to try to fool the graders.

mercurydimeguy

My goal has never been to get an improperly graded coin in to a one grade higher holder -- I have plenty of coins that are properly graded in their respective holders. But I have a number of coins as good (or better) than one/two grades higher coins.

I've come to the conclusion that it is less relevant if I know how to grade. What is more relevant is to know how the PCGS graders will grade. And in that I intend to keep them honest...meaning, I might not agree with their grades all the time and that's OK, because grading is very subjective. However, I will try to hold them accountable (as much as I can) on the consistency of how they grade. For the $$ everyone pays them, we don't have to agree with their grading, but we must demand that they grade consistently so we learn how they grade them, and subsequently we will be able to properly buy coins to submit for grading.

So, when I send in setup coins what I'm doing (or basically saying) is this:

Mr./Mrs. PCGS grader, here are 3 coins you graded MS65FB and here's one that you graded MS64FB. Please look at all 4 and tell me did you make a mistake and are the 65FB's really 64FB's, or was there an oversight and is the 64FB really a 65FB. They grade 1000's of coins of all varieties and denominations, and it's a lot easier to be comparing apples to apples when asked to making a grading decisions...for all you know they could've just looked at 20 morgans, 34 walkers and now they get a Proof Washington Quarter by itself...there's no context and nothing to compare this coin to...so is it a PR68CAM, PR68DCAM, PR69CAM, PR69DCAM...they'll need to make a judgment call without having any comparison.

By sending in setup coins (using the term setup not in any derogatory sense), I'm making their grading process simpler as they have something to compare the coins against.

By the way...I do this because I believe that once you get beyond MS63, PCGS graders stop grading coins and really begin to rank them. If there are no setup coins and they didn't just grade coins similar to yours, then they'd have to try to remember what a 64, 65, 66 should look like and, well, they don't always do a good job. However, if they have something to compare to...something they already graded at a 65 level, then if your coin looks like that it must be a 65, right? (rhetorically speaking)

And a disclaimer -- If one doesn't believe that at a certain point they begin to rank, and not grade, then you’re right -- sending in setup coins is a waste of $$ and pure buffoonery

pharmer

And when the setup coin does come back 66, gets cracked out and resubmitted, and comes back 67 (Linc wheats, pcgs), what is that?

magikbilly

<< <i>..but we must demand that they grade consistently so we learn how they grade them, and subsequently we will be able to properly buy coins to submit for grading. >>







<< <i>And when the setup coin does come back 66, gets cracked out and resubmitted, and comes back 67 (Linc wheats, pcgs), what is that? >>



Yup!

Billy

mercurydimeguy

pharmer, you have a point (if I think I understand what you're saying).

I don't prescribe to the "crack out" game...I'm simply a collector and I want coins in their properly (properly being earlier defined as consistently graded) graded holders. If comparing a number of 66's, one 66 looks like all I wouldn't know that it would come back a 67 because I wouldn't send it in. That's what I was eluding to...if in comparing coins I see a discrepency, I will resubmit to correct the discrepency.

That said, it sometimes takes several tries to convice them

topstuf

You're not nuts. I know one dealer who insists that if a coin is "walked through" during a major coin show when the main graders are gone, it will come back with a higher grade.

I can't verify this. It's only a rumor.

However I do know that he persuaded me to send a coin through "his guy" for a walk through and it got a 64 when I thought AU would have been generous. Nice scratch on it also.

Mistakes happen. Everywhere. The biggest COIN mistake IMO is taking TPG as .....GOSPEL!

mgoodm3

Maybe I'll try sacrificing a goat prior to my next submission.

nwcs

I don't think the technique actually works.

mercurydimeguy

I think coin collectors are more superstitious than baseball players or golfers.

I also try to submit when the Jet stream dips low to a trough, the moon is new and it takes customer service 3.5 minutes to answer the phone

pharmer

I'll explain further. When I come across a very nice coin while looking for varieties, I set it aside in a box. Those are reviewed later and some go into a "pcgs possibles" box. I'm talking possible pcgs ms67 wheats here. Those are further filtered and some go into a "pcgs submissions" box. When I am ready to submit, those are strenuously reviewed and go into the"definite pcgs submissions" box. One last weeding out occurs as I fill out the form, some in that last box make it, some don't.

So all that are submitted are 67's in my mind. Since I usually have more than 1 of a given date/mintmark, I try to include more than one for the grader's comparison. My success rate (about 20%) lends credence to this approach, and the 66's that come back are first in line for resubmission as long as they are nicer than any others I had come across in the interim.

slabfab

<< <i>
I've also considered putting in a "tip" coin. A coin not on the list with
a little note: here this is for you, thanks for doing a great job


.. just kidding. >>



Maybe the folding kind would give even better results?

magikbilly

<< <i>Numerical labeling combined with generic packaging also provides anonymity as each coin enters the grading room. >>



Can someone describe the current grading methods at PCGS - I thought the coins were individually graded by 2 or 3 people after going into some kind of tray system - do coins stay together when several are submitted at once? My info must be old - if not, how could this work - this "tip" coin? If the above quote is untrue, and the graders are so easily swayed, why submit at all? I'll be darned if I "learn to grade the way they greade so I know what to buy so I can send it in to get the grade that"...I think that is insane. Just grade the coin to your own (hopefully high and educated) standards as you are buying it and will have to live with it.

Billy

mercurydimeguy

Who said coin collecting was sane

My wife still think's I'm certifiable (no pun intended) to spend $10's of thousands of dollars on a bunch of little dimes

magikbilly

Well, I have nothing bad to say about 10c

But, no one answered my question - what is the process? Are coins submitted together graded by the same person at one time, etc?

Best,
Billy

pharmer

If you don't think it pays to construct a submission to highlight certain coins, read the sms lincoln huge upgrade thread.

magikbilly

The one where the author attributed his score to luck right in the title? I just am asking if coins submitted in a group get graded as a group by the same individual(s)?

Billy

magikbilly

TTT for answer