Raw early bust half and quarter questions.

SanctionII

Today I stopped by a local shop I frequent. In looking in their coin cases I saw numerous new raw coins in multiple series, including Bust Silver coinage.

What caught my eye were two coins, a raw 1807 Bust half and a raw 1807 Bust quarter. I looked at both coins in the case and also looked at the Bust half in hand with a loupe. Both coins looked nice. They were gray in color with lighter gray/silver color on the devices where the most wear is present. The look of the coins is similar to the look of circulated early Bust silver coins that have been pictured on the forum.

I am curious about these two coins and depending on price and other factors [i.e. my educating myself about them; possibly having them reviewed by dealers I trust and respect for an opinion on authenticity; or possibly paying to have them slabbed by the local shop and buying them if they actually make it into slabs] would consider purchasing them for inclusion into my US Type Set.

What information/advice can you early silver collectors give me on these types of coins [what to look for, how to sniff out counterfeits, grading, original v. dipped, etc.]. Thanks in advance. SanctionII

KurtHorn

Lots of early Bust coinage has been cleaned. The question is whether it is harsh enough to keep it from grading. I had to submit an 1806 quarter 3 times before it came back VF 35. It body bagged for cleaning twice. I just didn't agree. Anyway, that's my two cents worth...

greghansen

If this is a new area and you want an 'armchair education' on what the coins generally should look like, I'd go to Heritage Auction Archives, and look for 1807 VF in Bust Half Dollars. I just did it and it pulled up 32 coins. I'd look at every one of them. Same thing for 1807 VF Early Quarters. It pulled up 17 results. Some of the auctions are too old to have saved the pictures...but you can learn a fair piece by looking at these auction lot photo's. They're much better for circulated coins than for unc. coins because luster (which is difficult to capture in a 2 dimensional picuture) isn't as important. See if the slabbed coins in the Auction Archives look like the coins you saw at the shop. Then go from there.

rays

I personally would not buy any rare coins raw unless they were worth less than $100. Too much risk. Also, with the grading services around going on 20 years, almost all slabbable coins have been slabbed (the odd old time collection that occasionally surfaces being the exception, but even there, most are now being slabbed before sale even if the collection was formed many years ago).

airplanenut

<< <i> Also, with the grading services around going on 20 years, almost all slabbable coins have been slabbed (the odd old time collection that occasionally surfaces being the exception, but even there, most are now being slabbed before sale even if the collection was formed many years ago). >>

I'd like to know where you have gotten this information. Plenty of reputable dealers around the country have high value coins that remain raw--they know what they're buying.

For example, go find Doug Bird at a show--he'll have early copper in high grades all raw (out of the hundreds of coins he had last time I saw him, maybe a few were slabbed). I'd have no problem buying raw from him--he doesn't need the coins slabbed.

JrGMan2004

<< <i>Lots of early Bust coinage has been cleaned. The question is whether it is harsh enough to keep it from grading. I had to submit an 1806 quarter 3 times before it came back VF 35. It body bagged for cleaning twice. I just didn't agree. Anyway, that's my two cents worth... >>

OKbustchaser

<< <i> Also, with the grading services around going on 20 years, almost all slabbable coins have been slabbed (the odd old time collection that occasionally surfaces being the exception, but even there, most are now being slabbed before sale even if the collection was formed many years ago). >>




Why do people keep saying this? As much as many would like you to believe it simply isn't true. I am at least familiar with most of the major bust half collections in the country and would estimate that at a MINIUM 70 to 75% of the slabable bust coinage around is still raw--AND WILL REMAIN RAW for the forseeable future. I don't know for sure, but based on what I have heard and read from other bust specialists I suspect that the percentage for other denominations is even higher.

Jim

TomB

The 1807 DB quarter will be far more scarce in original circulated grades than the 1807 DB half and, given the choice of the two, I would suggest buying the quarter first as it is likely to sell faster. The DB and CB coinage has many coins that are highly desireable and that have never been slabbed. Your chances of finding a counterfeit are very slim and, if you do, many of the counterfeits are avidly collected and can be sold for good money. There is even a reference for counterfeit CBHs by Davignon titled Contemporary Counterfeit Capped Bust Half Dollars and the book is excellent. Also, altered date coins rarely show up unless you are buying an 1801 or 1815/2 half dollar. The surfaces on most of these extant pieces will have evidence of hairlines across the raised devices, this can be from holders such as album sleeves or envelopes, from general patterns of circulation or from old cleanings. I would not hesitate to buy a raw DB or CB coin and would suggest that if you know what an uncleaned WLH or Barber coin looks like then you are largely on your way to knowing what these coins look like in their original state, too.

rays

<< <i>

<< <i> Also, with the grading services around going on 20 years, almost all slabbable coins have been slabbed (the odd old time collection that occasionally surfaces being the exception, but even there, most are now being slabbed before sale even if the collection was formed many years ago). >>

I'd like to know where you have gotten this information. Plenty of reputable dealers around the country have high value coins that remain raw--they know what they're buying.

For example, go find Doug Bird at a show--he'll have early copper in high grades all raw (out of the hundreds of coins he had last time I saw him, maybe a few were slabbed). I'd have no problem buying raw from him--he doesn't need the coins slabbed. >>



I agree. EAC members are an exception, as many prefer their coins raw (especially if they are in old paper holders), some even cracking out slabbed coins. In my experience, this cracking out is atypical behavior for most coin collectors/dealers unless done with the intent of re-slabbing at a higher grade, with or without "enhancement".

Where I got my info-- just my own personal experience of 20 years collecting and bidding at auction. Here's one example: Take a look at a Heritage auction catalog from 1995 and compare to one of this years' sales. The percentage of unencapsulated coins has dropped substantially. IMO this is because most truly valuable coins have been slabbed. It has gotten to the pont that if/when a valuable coin appears that is not slabbed, one wonders why. Was the coin messed with?

OKbustchaser

<< <i>[I agree. EAC members are an exception, as many prefer their coins raw (especially if they are in old paper holders), some even cracking out slabbed coins. In my experience, this cracking out is atypical behavior for most coin collectors/dealers unless done with the intent of re-slabbing at a higher grade, with or without "enhancement". >>



It has been my experience that the cracking out of bust coins (at least halves) is not usually done seeking an upgrade. It's done because most advanced bust half collectors--just like EAC members prefer raw coins.



<< <i>Where I got my info-- just my own personal experience of 20 years collecting and bidding at auction. Here's one example: Take a look at a Heritage auction catalog from 1995 and compare to one of this years' sales. The percentage of unencapsulated coins has dropped substantially. IMO this is because most truly valuable coins have been slabbed. It has gotten to the pont that if/when a valuable coin appears that is not slabbed, one wonders why. Was the coin messed with? >>



No, most valuable bust coins are still raw. You are correct that it seems most auction houses now stress the need for slabbing and that is why the coins are sent for grading prior to sale. It is just such (IMO unfounded) mis-apprehensions that fueled that change.

Jim

rays

I stand corrected, Bust half collectors and EAC members often prefer raw coins. This is, however, a minority of the coin business. I can think of 3 or 4 EAC dealers, and one or two bust half specialist dealers that specialize in raw coins.
One more example. Lets say a raw 1796 no stars quarter eagle, in the typical EF/AU grade, is put up for auction by a major auction house. I would, and many others would also, wonder why the owner didn't bother to encapsulate the coin at a cost of $50 when the value approaches six figures? Most likely it was body-bagged for one reason or another. The consignor is unlikely to include this information in the lot description.

Were one to walk the bourse at Long Beach today and add up the value of all coins for sale over $100, what percentage would be raw? I don't know but I would guess less than 5%. To me the market has spoken.

OKbustchaser

Yes, and I admit that those misapprehensions are the reason that major TCP slabbed coins bring a premium price over raw. Once again this is why most of the major auction houses will now almost require a consignor to have his collection graded prior to sale--whether he kept it raw or not. And admitedly, more and more coins are staying in those holders after the sale as buyers don't want to lose that premium.

Jim