Options
Thurman Munson - 25 former players featured on 2005 Veterans Committee Ballot
VoteThurmanIn
Posts: 46
in Sports Talk
Thurman Munson: 11 seasons (1969-79), all with the Yankees…1970 AL Rookie of the Year…1976 AL MVP, seventh in balloting in '75 and '77… Three Gold Gloves…Seven-time All-Star…Played in the World Series, 1976-78…Hit .529 in the 1976 WS, setting a WS record with six straight hits…Overall, hit .357 with three HR and 22 RBI in 30 post season games… Drove in 100 runs three times and hit .300 five times.
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/whats_new/press_releases/2004/pr2004_12_06.htm
In this day of juiced up players let's get the real deal in:
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/veterans/contact.htm
0
Comments
JS
I am hoping this juiced up steroid crazy era will put Thurman's statistics in perspective and that former players when voting will take note.
And joestalin, Yogi is probably the greatest catcher of all time but did you know Munson's lifetime Batting Average of .292 is higher than Berra's lifetime batting average of .285?
He simply didn't play long enough and dominate enough years for me to say he's deserving of the hall of fame.
To basically state that Berra was "probably" the greatest catcher of all time, which means you are saying that Berra was better than Bench, sort of shows your New York Yankees bias - and that's okay. Munson's death was terribly tragic but he is not a Hall of Famer. Most probably would have been if not for the horrible accident.
<< <i>It's a tragedy this great player (and man) was cut down in his prime, but that can't be used as an argument for his inclusion.
He simply didn't play long enough and dominate enough years for me to say he's deserving of the hall of fame. >>
Though a fine player, he falls short of what I consider a HOF. Freehan is a good comp with a longer career.
By the way, Munson's BA was almost 30 points higher than HOFer Bench...imagine that!!!!
Catching is the most important job on any team, and probably the most important defensive position.
Munson was a classic example of an Old School field leader, and all the success his pitching staffs had should not be overlooked.
They need to change the name to "Hall of offensive career statistical compilation"
Munson was cetainly amongst the most famous players of his era (crash or no-crash)
Correct me if I am wrong but when Bill James put together his SABR metrics criteria for the HOF, he doesn't compare offensive statistics position by posiition, in other words an Outfieder might be compared to a Catcher. There is no doubt that catchers' offensive numbers suffer due to the beating they take year in and year out.
<< <i>
Catching is the most important job on any team, and probably the most important defensive position.
>>
More important than pitching?
I'd have to respectfully disagree. Even if Munson was considered the finest defensive catcher ever, his career was (again, tragically) far too short to merit consideration for the hall of fame.
Is there a post WWII catcher in the HOF worse than Munson? It's usually not a good sign if your guy would be the weakest at his position to get in. You know who's the 2004 version of Thurman? Jason Varitek (yeah this'll go over well with Yankee fans). Great leader, good hitter but not Piazza/Bench numbers. Integral part to his team's success. But is Varitek going to be a HOFer? Not likely.
<< <i>Too much emphasis on offensive numbers.
Catching is the most important job on any team, and probably the most important defensive position.
Munson was a classic example of an Old School field leader, and all the success his pitching staffs had should not be overlooked.
They need to change the name to "Hall of offensive career statistical compilation"
Munson was cetainly amongst the most famous players of his era (crash or no-crash) >>
Murcerfan,
I disagree. With:
Catching is not the most important job on the team: pitching is and shortstop would be the most purely defensive.
Munson may have been an excellent "field general", but Booney, Fisk, Carter and Sunberg have better reps.
The Hall of Fame acknowledges both offensive and defensive greatness, but offense is MORE important!
Munson was not among the most famous of his era! On his own team he was fourth banana behind Reggie, Guidry and the manager. He and Nettles were about even.
Gemmy10 - James accounts for the positional differences. Munson does not qualify under anybodys criteria.
Skinpinch - Has any catcher in history ever thrown better than Irod or completely eliminated opposition running games the way he has in the past?
<< <i>Skinpinch - Has any catcher in history ever thrown better than Irod or completely eliminated opposition running games the way he has in the past? >>
Sundberg and Hegan are two non-HOF's that come to mind
<< <i>How many votes did Munson get last time? >>
more than he will get this time.
<< <i>It's a tragedy this great player (and man) was cut down in his prime, but that can't be used as an argument for his inclusion.
He simply didn't play long enough and dominate enough years for me to say he's deserving of the hall of fame. >>
AMEN! THIS is exactly right. and perfectly said.
I agree 100% with that..
WRONGO. Being on the most storied Franchise in the history of sports which already has 2 HOF Catchers has hurt Munson. If he had been on the Montreal Expos he would be getting mopre consideration.
He doesn't belong there. He hit as many as 20 homers - just once. His overall stats just aren't good enough.
Typical Yankee hater minutia.
What was Bill Mazeroski's lifetime Batting Average and how many times did he have over 100 RBI's? The list goes on and on with HOF players like this but I don't want to waste my time looking them up.
<< <i> If he wasn't a yankee (like Mattingly) would we even be having these discussions?
WRONGO. Being on the most storied Franchise in the history of sports which already has 2 HOF Catchers has hurt Munson. If he had been on the Montreal Expos he would be getting mopre consideration.
He doesn't belong there. He hit as many as 20 homers - just once. His overall stats just aren't good enough.
Typical Yankee hater minutia.
What was Bill Mazeroski's lifetime Batting Average and how many times did he have over 100 RBI's? The list goes on and on with HOF players like this but I don't want to waste my time looking them up. >>
If he played on the Expos we wouldn't even remember him, let alone consider him for the HoF. The fact that yankees has 2 HoF catchers has no bearing on Munson's perceived worth or merit. I have never in my life heard Munson compared to either one when mentioning why. It's not like people are saying 'the yankees have 2 all-time great catchers in the hall, they can't have a third'. Silly argument.
Someone states that hitting just 20 homers (once) and then giving his opinon that its Yankee Hating?
I know you are a fan of his...I know you think he deserves in....but if you look objectively at the numbers, you would see that his career just wasn't long enough.
www.baseball-reference.com:
"1 Terry Steinbach (903)
2 Tim McCarver (898)
3 Manny Sanguillen (896)
4 Jack Clements (890)
5 Smoky Burgess (883)
6 Terry Kennedy (881)
7 Jason Kendall (880)
8 Wally Schang (878)
9 Elston Howard (875)
10 Bill Freehan (871)"
Where the higher the number the higher the closeness of his career stats to Munsons. Terry Steinbach is the closest player in the history of the game to Munson's numbers...Steinbach's numbers were very similar (steinbach had better power numbers, munson had better batting averages). Should we start a petition to get Steinbach in the hall, too?
I guess that's my point. Some guys just don't get the chance. Campanella didn't get the extra 2 or 3 year either but.....
In the last vote of the Veterans Committee Munson got 4 votes to tie for 24th in the voting. Elston Howard got 6 votes.
Thurman Munson is on the final ist of eligible candidates as voted upon by a screening committee of 60 writers. He is one of 25 finalists and the results will be announced on March 2, at 2 pm at our Web site,
www.baseballhalloffame.org. The full Veterans Committee electorate will cast their votes on the final list of candidates in January/February 2005.
It is extremely difficult to earn election, as only 1 percent of those to have worn a major league uniform -- one in 100 - have a plaque in Cooperstown. While Mr. Munson is not currently a member of the Hall of Fame, he is represented in the Museum and Library as an important figure in baseball history. The Museum has in its collection: a batting helmet from the 1970's, a free standing sculpture of glass, wood and bronze created by Steve Linn, baseball cards and posters. On loan, we have a catchers mitt and mask that came from Gene Michael, which he used during his career with the Yankees.
Mr. Munson first became eligible for induction into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1981. According to the Rules of Election, Mr. Munson was eligible for consideration by the BBWAA for 15 years. During that span of time he garnered a considerable number of votes, though never more than the 75 percent required for induction.
============================================================================
The thing that is interesting is that this is the 2nd time, 2003 being the first, that Munson has made the 25 finalist list since the HOF rules changed in 2001. Someone must be pushing for him.
<< <i>In the last vote of the Veterans Committee Munson got 4 votes to tie for 24th in the voting. >>
Like I said - He will get LESS votes this year than last, and in a few years he will not even be on this bogus "back door" ballot anyway. Case closed.
Maz was the greatest defensive 2nd Baseman ever and was the best overall 2nd Baseman in the major leagues over a ten year span. Sure, his hitting numbers weren't great by today's standards, but he played in an era dominated by pitching. They had no choice to put Maz in the Hall when they elected weak-hitting, best-defensive-shortstop-ever Ozzie Smith on the first ballot.
As for Munson, it shouldn't happen, but then again the Veterens Committee also elected Phil Rizzuto, and in many writers opinions, that was by far the biggest Hall of Fame election scandal in the history of Cooperstown! What a travesty that his cronies snuck him through!
Who was out cronied?
Mazeroski:
Gray Ink: Batting - 12 (1214) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 15.9 (991) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 62.0 (276) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Rizzuto:
Gray Ink: Batting - 46 (515) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 23.0 (532) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 87.0 (175) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Nuff said.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
Mazeroski:
Gray Ink: Batting - 12 (1214) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 15.9 (991) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 62.0 (276) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Rizzuto:
Gray Ink: Batting - 46 (515) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 23.0 (532) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 87.0 (175) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Nuff said. >>
Gemmy (VoteThurmanIn) --
You just don't get it do you? It wasn't his bat that got Maz into the Hall. It was his glove. He still holds at least 4 defensive records for 2nd Baseman and all historians will tell you that he was the best defensive 2nd baseman to ever play the game.
Charles Faber, in his Baseball Ratings has developed a formula by which he awards points for fielding percentage, assists, chances, and fielding range. Bill Mazeroski ranks first all-time.
Such a distinction - the best fielder of all-time - makes Mazeroski anything BUT a questionable Hall of Famer. In fact, Total Baseball ranks Mazeroski as the 77th best player of all-time.
Combining Mazeroski's offensive numbers with a statistic known as "fielding runs" and "fielding wins," a total player rating can be determined. Where does Mazeroski rank? 77th with a Total Player Rating of 36.3. He's above such notables as Yogi Berra, Paul Waner, Bill Dickey, Frank Baker, Willie Stargell, Rod Carew, Mickey Cochrane, Richie Ashburn, Andre Dawson, Kirby Puckett, Ralph Kiner, and a host of others.
Fielding Runs is the measure of runs saved beyond what a league-average player at that position might have saved. Fielding Wins is the number of Fielding Runs divided by the number of runs required to create an additional win beyond average.
Even in Total Player Rating by era, Mazeroski is ranked 10th (1961-1976).
Rizzuto is nowhere to be found in any of these rankings. Thanks for pointing out that his batting didn't make him worthy of the Hall. But neither did his fielding. That's why it's such a travesty.
You just don't get it do you? It wasn't his bat that got Maz into the Hall. It was his glove. He still holds at least 4 defensive records for 2nd Baseman and all historians will tell you that he was the best defensive 2nd baseman to ever play the game.
Charles Faber, in his Baseball Ratings has developed a formula by which he awards points for fielding percentage, assists, chances, and fielding range. Bill Mazeroski ranks first all-time.>>
dude (Pirates fan),
Thanks for the compliment.
Who is Charles Faber? I know Bill James.
Really, what's the name of it?
dude,
If Mazeroski got in solely for his fielding then this guy without a doubt should be in there for his fielding and hitting. Until he hurt his back he was the best 1Bman offensively, and even afterward he was still the best defensive 1Bman in either league:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mattido01.shtml
Awards
1985-AL-GG-1B
1985-AL-MVP
1986-AL-GG-1B
1987-AL-GG-1B
1988-AL-GG-1B
1989-AL-GG-1B
1991-AL-GG-1B
1992-AL-GG-1B
1993-AL-GG-1B
1994-AL-GG-1B
Black Ink: Batting - 23 (83) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 111 (180) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 34.1 (206) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 133.5 (92) (Likely HOFer > 100)
Hrbek
No Gold Gloves.
Less Hits and RBI's than Mattingly, lifetime BA 15 points lower. The only category he beats Mattingly is HR.
Gray Ink: Batting - 40 (585) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 25.9 (409) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 18.5 (776) (Likely HOFer > 100)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hrbekke01.shtml
Mattingly does not have him by much (Donnie also had close to 1000 more AB's) and NO ONE talks about Hrbek. Not that Kent should be mentioned, but c'mon ... if Mattingly was not a Yankee this thread would not be here.
Greg Luzinski is one of my Phavorite players. He has nice stats too, but is not a HOFer.
Munson, was the TOP DOG on that team. He was afterall the CAPTAIN.
As for the Hall, had he not died he surly would have made it in.
<< <i>Munson was not among the most famous of his era! On his own team he was fourth banana behind Reggie, Guidry and the manager. He and Nettles were about even
Munson, was the TOP DOG on that team. He was afterall the CAPTAIN.
As for the Hall, had he not died he surly would have made it in. >>
He may have been captain but he was not as famous as the others, until he died. As for playing longer bolstering his stats, in his last 1000 at bats he hit like Tito Fuentes and was starting to DH.
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
1978 31 NYY AL 154 617 73 183 27 1 6 71 2 3 35 70 .297 .332 .373 230 1 10 6 3 20
1979 32 NYY AL 97 382 42 110 18 3 3 39 1 2 32 37 .288 .340 .374 143 1 4 2 0 15