UPDATE: Monster Blue Buffalo: AT or NT??
ChuckC
Posts: 1,600
I just returned from the Cleveland Coin Expo, and the first coin I purchased was this blue toned buffalo (pictured below). The dealer was super nice...had all raw coins, including a couple target toned buffalos and the blue one I bought; he talked about how he loved the collector and still gets excitied about the coins that come and go. Anyway, I pulled the trigger cuz it looked like something I've seen slabbed and sold by guys like Great Toning and Anaconda. I showed three other dealers in the room. One said he thought it was MS64 NT. Another thought MS64 shot 65, 50-50 NT. The last dealer I spoke to, Michael Annis, convinced me that it was cooked. Mr. Annis apparently has connections with the heads of PCGS and NGC...said he knew the president of PCGS since he was 14.
I need your help determining if I was swindled! I don't want AT, I want NT!!
I need your help determining if I was swindled! I don't want AT, I want NT!!
0
Comments
Edit: It just showed up. Gotta go with bodybag on this one.
Russ, NCNE
TBT
<< <i>It looks AT to me, but don't confuse that with having been "swindled". There is no evidence that the seller thought or knew the coin was AT. >>
Well there may be some evidence...according to Annis, they reported that guy to the ANA for artifically toned coins. That's all I know
<< <i>There is no evidence that the seller thought or knew the coin was AT. >>
Yeah, unlike the dealer I bought these two from.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>PS: I just realized that might be misunderstood. I did NOT get those from Coinguy1! >>
Darn straight!
<< <i>Well there may be some evidence...according to Annis, they reported that guy to the ANA for artifically toned coins. That's all I know >>
ChuckC, presumably, you heard that before you posted the coin here.
If you had the opportunity to cry foul to the seller before posting here and chose not to, it's not really fair to him to do so now, just because the forum thinks the coin is AT. I imagine if the consensus here were NT 66 or whatever, you'd think the seller was fine.
The transaction was either on the up and up at the time it occurred or not - the opinions expressed here don't change/alter it one way or the other.
I'm not trying to be hard on you, just fair to the seller.
Is there really a difference? These two don't have to be mutually exclusive!
As for your coin, I'd be happy to buy it. I have a 1928 PCGS AU58 Peace $ with the exact same color. Tell me how much????
TPN
Did the seller think to himself "hmm, Chuck likes to buy AT coins, this one is perfect for him" or "I can't wait to sell this kid an AT coin and make about $70" or "This is a wonderful NT coin with amazing color, what a lucky guy" or "In my opinion, this coin could go either way, but in my opinion, it's NT" and so on.... The point is, I can't read minds, that's why I like coimg to the forum and other dealers for help (in many respects, I'm an amatuer when it comes to things like grading and color...the one guy said I was "too young to know the difference" I am 23 with less exposure to coins that an experienced 63 year old dealer...the guy may be right)
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
yes definately cooked............................AT and a really bad ugly ass job to boot
TPN
The dealer bought the coin back for 10% less than what I paid. It was sickening the way he was bulls***ting another customer.
When he got to me, I said, "i bought this coin on an impulse, it's not where my collection is headed, I want my money back."
He said "I'll buy it back for 10% less"
Me: "I don't want to have a problem, I want all my money back"
Dealer: "This is the third time today, this is a for-profit business, it's hard to break even as it is"
Me: "I understand, but I don't want a problem, I believe this coin is artificially toned"
Dealer: "Either take $95 or enjoy the coin for your collection"
Me: "$95 isn't even 90% of $110"
Dealer "$95 is all I can do"
Me: "I'll take it...I better not see you at this show again"
I got a little worked up. It's the typical "nice guy on the outside, BS story about how he loves coins and collecting and he doesn't care if he loses money because he enjoys it so much."
<< <i>If your grading ability is not at the point where you can determine AT/NT on your own, I would strongly suggest not buying raw toners. >>
Agreed. The two IHCs I posted in this thread are a perfect example. I bought them sight seen at a show. When they were bodybagged at PCGS, I made no attempt to return them. When I later found out that they had previously been purchased by another forum member, submitted, bodybagged and returned to the dealer from whom I bought them, I still made no attempt to return them.
Sometimes, you just have to suck it up and take your lumps like a man.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
Me: "...I better not see you at this show again".........." >>
it is possible they bought it that way and are just turning inventory
<< <i>what makes you think the dealer knows more than you or actually played with this nickel?
it is possible they bought it that way and are just turning inventory >>
It's wrong, unethical, not right, immoral, to sell AT coins in my opinion regardless of whether the dealer bought them that way or not. The only time I'd approve of AT coin selling is if it is advertised as such.
<< <i>
<< <i>what makes you think the dealer knows more than you or actually played with this nickel?
it is possible they bought it that way and are just turning inventory >>
It's wrong, unethical, not right, immoral, to sell AT coins in my opinion regardless of whether the dealer bought them that way or not. The only time I'd approve of AT coin selling is if it is advertised as such. >>
I know it's your opinion, but "immoral"?
<< <i>It's wrong, unethical, not right, immoral, to sell AT coins in my opinion regardless of whether the dealer bought them that way or not >>
To be fair, even the grading services don't always agree.
Here's my story...
The first day of the Summer Seminar, we went to the CO Springs Coin Show. One of the first coins I saw was a buffalo with a bright orange and pink target... relatively mark-free, lustrous. I thought something was wrong, but the more I looked, the more I thought I'd be stupid to not buy it. That was the dumb attitude. I proudly showed the coin to Mike Faraone at the ANACS table, and he wasn't so sure about the toning. Then Bob Campbell, the toning expert, came by. He told me how the coin was lightly polished, then AT'd--then told me how to spot AT jobs like this in the future. That said, he encouraged me to return the coin, as it was only a few minutes after I bought it--I did. But, had I not, I would have learned a very expensive lesson, considering it was about 1/3 the money I had with me for the week. Even though I was able to get my money back, I still learned two lessons: how to tell that type of AT, and if you think something's wrong in the back of your mind, it probably is. I did go on to buy a bust half from the dealer, so they still made something back.
Jeremy
<< <i>It's wrong, unethical, not right, immoral, to sell AT coins in my opinion regardless of whether the dealer bought them that way or not. >>
Well, you might want to stay out of the toned coin market then. Some dealers do sell AT coins knowingly and these are coins that are in top tier plastic as well. Just because its slabbed, doesn't mean its NT -- it just means it's market acceptable and if its MA -- then its means profit for a dealer. And then again, it still might be in plastic and be blantant AT. Plastic isn't an assurance its NT. Try to understand where the color came from, how did THAT color get on THAT coin. How common is that color on that particular series. If I see end roll toning with bright colors on a Peace $, my radar goes up. If I see textile toning on a Peace $, I start to question the coin. Why -- cause I have never seen either one and I've seen thousands of toned Peace $. Learn your series inside and out.
With the 28 I posted -- could it be AT -- sure could -- might be. I've never see a blue/gold Peace $. But I didn't pay a premium for the toning, its in PCGS plastic and its still a 28. I didn't think I would get burned on the coin even if it was AT.
Look at it this way -- you are going to take your lumps. It's going to cost you money, hopefully just not that much.
After a while, you'll be able to spot AT from NT, most of the time. And then there will be those coins that you still might not be able to tell.
TPN