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Question for the error guys.

JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was looking thru a few rolls of 95P Lincoln's and I came across 3 of these coins. First let me say that I DO NOT think they are doubled dies, yet I also do not think they look like normal shelf doubled coins either. The doubling (?) is apparent on the crossbars of the T and E , as well as on the D of IGWT. Does anyone have any idea on these? Let me add that there is no listing for Master Die Doubling on these coins. Any opinions appreciated.
imageimageimage
Some coins are just plain "Interesting"

Comments

  • sumduncesumdunce Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭✭
    The serifs don't show separation. Therefore I would say it is strike doubling.


  • << <i>The serifs don't show separation. Therefore I would say it is strike doubling. >>



    I agree
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Although serif separation is not the only form of doubling, your's is clearly mechanical/strike doubling, and of no premium value. Nice pics.
    Doug
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do agree that it does not look like (nor is it) true hub doubling, but it also does not look like normal strike/shelf doubling either. I also agree that mechanical doubling can be fickle, but this just does not appear to be "normal strike/shelf doubling.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,653 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Frequently mechanically doubled elements will have a scraped look and are almost
    perfectly flat. Sometimes they'll look more like these. While I'm not sure of the cause,
    I suspect that the press and/ or die was moving in more dimensions; rather than
    merely slipping off the coin leaving a scrape, it was still or again under pressure when
    the secondary image was made.
    Tempus fugit.
  • carlcarl Posts: 2,054
    OK so I'm a dummy. What is the difference between Hub, Strike/Shelf and Mechanical Doubling? Everyone keeps on talking about one or the other and I have no idea what's going on. Isn't a double die just a double die? Why would one be different from another. Isn't a coin doubled when it is struck twice or more?
    Carl
  • carlcarl Posts: 2,054
    Great close ups. What kind of camera, lighting, setup did you use to take them? Why does your submital take up so much horizontal room when attepting to open I must scroll from right to left to see it all?
    Carl
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hub doubled varieties (doubled dies)
    The hubbing process, while rather simple in its procedure, is rather complex in the varieties that it produces. Once the master die (incused image) is created (a process not completely relevant at this point), it is used to hub or squeeze a working hub (relief image), which is in turn used to hub a working die (incused image). Since one hubbing is not usually enough to bring up a sharp image, the die is annealed (softened by heat) and re-hubbed, occasionally multiple times. If the working hub and working die with its initial image are not fitted together properly in the press, a doubled image occurs on the die. This doubled die will in turn transfer a doubled image to every coin it produces. While much has been made of the way in which a doubled die is produced (the complex part), the important thing is to be able to recognize the characteristics of hub doubling. These characteristics include raised, rounded images with splits in the serifs and valleys or furrows between the images. These are the same characteristics as found on repunched dates and repunched mintmarks. Being able to distinguish hub doubling from “machine damage doubling” (sometimes called “ejection doubling,” “mechanical doubling,” or “strike doubling”) is a mark of the advanced variety collector. However, anyone can learn the difference if they are willing to take the time to study the photos and the coins.

    In its infancy, the collecting of hub doubled coins, commonly known as “doubled dies,” centered around the circumstances that produced the various kinds of doubling known. For example, the doubling on some coins appeared all the way around the rim lettering in a clockwise or counter-clockwise fashion. Other coins exhibited doubling on just some of the rim lettering. On other coins, the doubling was directed toward the center or the rim. Still on others the doubling affected only certain design elements. Thus the following classes of hub doubling were proposed, principally by Alan Herbert, to explain these differences. Most hub doubling is now regarded as a hybrid of these classes. It is very difficult with only a coin in hand to logically backtrack and find the cause of its hub doubling. So many things can and do happen in the hubbing process that figuring out exactly what happened in each case may not be possible. Again, the important thing is recognizing the variety as true hub doubling, not in determining to which class of hub doubling it belongs. See Rotated hub doubling, Distorted hub doubling, Design hub doubling, Offset hub doubling, Pivoted hub doubling, Distended hub doubling, Modified hub doubling, and Tilted hub doubling.



    Machine Doubling (MDD)
    This NOT a form of hub doubling. The secondary image is flat and shelf-like, with rounded-out serifs. There are no valleys or furrows between the images. When tilted, the area between the two images is shiny. The light reflects off of sheared metal. Because the metal is actually sheared or moved, this form of doubling is considered damage to the coin and commands NO premium. This form of doubling is also refered to as "Strike Doubling" or "Mechanical Doubling" by others.

    These definitions were taken from the CONECA website (so I wouldn't butcher the explanation)

    http://conecaonline.org/content/glossary.html



    LINK HERE
    Doug
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    To paraphrase Shakespeare, "There are more forms of doubling in heaven and earth than ever was dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio" (or something like that).

    While strike doubling is a possibility, I hesitate for the reasons you pointed out. If you look at the crossbar of the "T", you find it surrounded by a puffy ledge. That's more characteristic of die deterioration doubling (DDD). While this coin does not appear to be even a middle die state, it's possible we are seeing premature development of DDD.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mike, I'll defer to you. It's always difficult when you don't have the coin in hand, and even then the lines lie, lie, lie . . .
    Doug
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for all the opinions guys. I do appreciate it. Hey Mike- Chuck (coppercoins) gave me the same opinion that you did. He felt that it was die wear or early deterioration due to the way these dies deteriorate because of this particular compound. Interesting, really interesting. Hey Carl- PM me and I will give you all the specs.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is an interesting die state, but very common IMHO.
    Doug
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree Doug- I pulled out at least 25 from this roll in this, and similar die states. The intention of this post was to explain (or try to) the reason for this effect.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And knowledge is king. Thanks for posting it.
    Doug

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