I can put a 2003 nickel, fresh out of a bank roll, up for auction on ebay. I can start it at $2,000.00 if I choose to. I can say its unc and compare prices to whatever guide I happen to like. You can't do anything about it.
Even though he sounds a little vindictive at our forum in his description, he is advertising the coin as NTC graded it.
To be more correct and not misleading, he should not have said
<< <i>PCGS LISTS THIS COIN AT A WHOPPING $55,000.OO. >>
. Using the words "THIS COIN" is misleading with it's reference to PCGS.
On the other hand, there may be a number of reasons the bid starts at $12K. Perhaps it's a sale on consignment. Or maybe he recently purchased the coin himself on a similar auction and is passing this rare find on to someone else.
Personally, I would like to know what 8TF VAM it is. Another reason that it could go at a higher reserve price (even though this is not mentioned). Some grading companies weren't looking for or grading VAMs until just recently.
I've seen a lot of eBay scum lately but other than the faulty reference wording in regards to PCGS, I'm not convinced of any willful malicious wrong-doing here.
-------------
A penny saved is a government oversight.
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
<< <i>CalGold is someone who bashes just about every coin posted here >>
Well Eric it all depends upon what you consider "bashing." As I recall it I said that the Morgan you posted looked baggy and had a staple scratch. And low and behold when you got it in hand it turned out to be what? Baggy and had a staple scratch. That's not bashing, that's just giving an honest description of what was presented. Do you think it would be better if we all posted praises of messed up coins here? I don't. I think these boards are to help develop connoisseurship, and you cannot do that without critical evaluation and discussion. I never attacked or insulted you. I only commented on the surface preservation of a coin. If you took that to be an attack on yourself as a person, perhaps you need to learn to separate the object at hand from your persona.
>>>>Homer, but most great registry sets are only great because of one reason.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
well to be frank i know many collectors ( a music teacher in la comes to mind ) who worked his butt off collecting the coolest comemms ....and he did it on a music teachers salary.....and his coins will make your heart stop...so no...money is not the only thing needed...but if it was....no problem...go make yourself worth more and the problem is solved...its just that easy!!
but then again....if your elevator doesnt go to the top ..as your ethics shows yours doesnt....money would be a problem for you...that being said i see your pain ...as you are rife with self esteem issues
calgold
i`ll be thanking you for watching my back...i will be your wingman anytime
as for all those who dont see a ethics problem ..............mmmmm
one would be surprised at the total lack of grey matter on your part... however taking it to another level of thinking ...one can only deduce from the facts at hand.... that if you dont see an ethics problem here you are one of those slimmy little slimeballs scamming off others ...lying ...cheatin and stealin
really ...its only logical ..isnt it!!!
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
After weeding through the words and considering the various personalities, here is my brief interpretation/analysis/synopsis of this unnecessarily lengthy, though somewhat entertaining thread:
<< <i>Come on your Honor, can't you answer a simple legal question from a low life uneducated truck driver? You're a judge this should be easy for you.
What is illegal about this auction? What can we report to eBay to get this auction pulled? >>
<< <i>After weeding through the words and considering the various personalities, here is my brief interpretation/analysis/synopsis of this unnecessarily lengthy, though somewhat entertaining thread:
Unethical; un•eth•i•cal [ un éthik’l ] adjective not ethical: inconsistent with agreed standards of moral conduct, especially within a particular profession un•eth•i•cal•ly adverb
What do all of you think the seller is doing in his auction? Here are three different scenarios based on real legal concepts. Take your pick.
Legal concepts:
1. puffing
n. the exaggeration of the good points of a product, a business, real property and the prospects for future rise in value, profits and growth. Since a certain amount of "puffing" can be expected of any salesman, it cannot be the basis of a lawsuit for fraud or breach of contract unless the exaggeration exceeds the reality. However, if the puffery includes outright lies or has no basis in fact ("Sears Roebuck is building next door to your store site") a legal action for rescission of the contract or for fraud against the seller is possible.
2. misrepresentation
n. the crime of misstating facts to obtain money, goods or benefits of another to which the accused is not entitled. Examples: a person a) falsely claims to represent a charity to obtain a donation which he/she keeps; b) says a painting is a genuine Jackson Pollock when it is a fake and thus is able to sell it for a price much greater than its true value. Misrepresentation is also called "false pretenses."
3. fraud
n. the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right. A party who has lost something due to fraud is entitled to file a lawsuit for damages against the party acting fraudulently, and the damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud. Quite often there are several persons involved in a scheme to commit fraud and each and all may be liable for the total damages. Inherent in fraud is an unjust advantage over another which injures that person or entity. It includes failing to point out a known mistake in a contract or other writing (such as a deed), or not revealing a fact which he/she has a duty to communicate, such as a survey which shows there are only 10 acres of land being purchased and not 20 as originally understood. Constructive fraud can be proved by a showing of breach of legal duty (like using the trust funds held for another in an investment in one's own business) without direct proof of fraud or fraudulent intent. Extrinsic fraud occurs when deceit is employed to keep someone from exercising a right, such as a fair trial, by hiding evidence or misleading the opposing party in a lawsuit. Since fraud is intended to employ dishonesty to deprive another of money, property or a right, it can also be a crime for which the fraudulent person(s) can be charged, tried and convicted. Borderline overreaching or taking advantage of another's naiveté involving smaller amounts is often overlooked by law enforcement, which suggests the victim seek a "civil remedy" (i.e., sue). However, increasingly fraud, which has victimized a large segment of the public (even in individually small amounts), has become the target of consumer fraud divisions in the offices of district attorneys and attorneys general.
I keep seeing the reference truck driver used in a derogatory tone. I normally don't get mixed up in these mud-slinging fests but someone here needs to learn a few manners. Truck drivers keep the good, old US of A humming along in our gotta have it now society. The ones I know will go out of their way to help someone and even give away their last dollar to help someone else out. They also have a euphemism for someone of your caliber. . .sex intellect. . .I'm sure you can figure it out.
you are correct.....i know one truck driver who has been hauling explosives for 30 years....one ticket and he is fired...end of job...period..no tolerance at all....real tuff insurance regs...fact is... truckers do run the country and without them we would be sol and i stand corrected
thus i think i will stick to " fry technician "..in order to be politically correct
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Once again, Mark has been the voice of reason here, and he was completely correct with his assessment that there were two seperate arguements going on here..... and neither side seemed to notice. On the plus side, there were a lot of nice middle-school level insults being thrown around!!
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
>>>PCGS LISTS THIS COIN AT A WHOPPING $55,000.OO>>
is misleading as to its real value and HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER ON THE REAL VALUE OF THIS COIN....NONE WHAT SO EVER...PERIOD
Who, excepting you, on this forum really cares about this coin's "real value"? No price guide establishes a coin's "real value." If someone buys this NTC holdered coin for $12,000 and happily keeps it, $12,000 must be the "real value," as measured in dollars, of this coin to its new owner.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Truthfully, the culprit in this whole matter is NTC, and other TPG's who are really misrepresenting coins with an unreasonable grade.
If I was a "newbie" and saw this auction, I might think the coin is a good value at $12k. But, being the skeptic, I want to know who graded it MS67 and what that means as far as protecting the value of the coin. So I look up www.numistrust.com to see if this company stands behind it's grade.
Here are some statements made on the Numistrust site:
The Numistrust corporation is your premiere coin grading service for establishing the grade of your coin based assets. Our professional grading staff is the best in the grading business.
Ok, well this is puffing. Every TPG says this, so I'm not going to rely on it.
We are a fully insured, comprehensive coin grading service that prides itself on conservative grading procedures and the best in customer support. Our mission is to take the uncertainty out of third party grading by providing a safe and stable grading standard for the coin community to rely on and trust in.
Hmmm. This one interests me . . . "fully insured." So does "to rely on and trust in." Sounds like they have insurance in case the coin is not really an MS67 and I need to get my money back if the coin is not graded properly. This seems like more than puffing and something I might rely on just like they say they want me to.
Well, I read every page on the site and they don't say disclaim any liability. So, it must be safe to buy the coin!
What everyone knows here is that it's a nice coin but certainly overgraded by this company and the seller may ask whatever he wants for it. And what burns a bit is we all know, that the seller knows, the coin is overgraded by industry standards and those of most knowedgeable collectors. Nothing much new here-- anymore than the old days of "buying coins as VF and selling as XF".
Morgannut, I think it takes a little different slant when an independent grading service puts a grade on it. Everyone expects the seller to push the coin, and may even fudge some on the grade, like your VF to EF example. But an insured independent grading service????
>>If someone buys this NTC holdered coin for $12,000 and happily keeps it, $12,000 must be the "real value," as measured in dollars, of this coin to its new owner.>>>
i hope he has some money left to buy your coins when you want to sell them...in fact he can sell this coin and take all the cash he gets back...and go.....to the movies too
dmwjr
>>>Truthfully, the culprit in this whole matter is NTC, and other TPG's who are really misrepresenting coins with an unreasonable grade. >>>
i respectfuly disagree...ntc has to fit in the grading spectrum somewhere..too tuff and no submissions....so they are looser to get submissions...if you were the ceo you would do the same thing as would i...its only their opinion and thats an art not a science..i dont think its an unreaonable grade...for a ntc coin...but if you continued and said " compared to a pcgs coin".... it is and you would be 100% correct
..the problem here is still with the seller and how he mentions a price list of another grading service where as the buyer is lead to believe or conclude that it is relevant to the coin he is wanting to buy...when in fact it is not relevant at all
morgannut2
>>>What everyone knows here is that it's a nice coin but certainly overgraded by this company
again i say it is not clearly over graded..... by ntc standards....it is by pcgs`s standards...and it is by your standards as well as mine...but not by ntc`s
which brings me to a great subject
question
is there such a thing as gradeflation????..yes or no
it is really a dumb question...of course there is...it has always been my belief that the services are ranking coins....can anyone contest that??
ok...here is another one
is there a cartel in the coin market??? yes or no
i think there is...oh dont think so
ok...try this
diamonds are carteled to maintain prices which is good for all the players in that market....they match supply with demand....what would happen if the grading services cut out the gradeflation and put the real grades on the coins this month.... they would create so much market value so fast they would crash the market...and they would be out of business as well as many dealers and wholesalers....and all our holdings would be worth less
ok....now you run pcgs...and you know the market can absorb 1 millon a day in new market value that pcgs creates....thus if the fun show traded 60 million which is twice the absorbtion rate ability...wouldnt it be wise for you to tighten up and not create value that the market cant absorb right now.... it would not be wise to flood the market would it??....and hey...you make more money doing it!! because next month all those coins you downgraded will be sent in again!!!! thats brilliant....control the market and make more money doing it
does anyone think there are players who will submit 3,000 coins at once and pay 300,000 in fees...you bet there is...many of them...you think they submit them slabed or raw....you think its fun to pay 300,000 in cash for 3,000 coins and get 659 downgrades and 212 upgrades and be out 658,000 in market value....oh it happens ...and to keep it from happening to you you need to know the money supply condition....just like the fed and it`s m-1 and m-2 and m-3
btw i have seen them make 1,000,000 too.....in a day
where am i going with all this....this is big business and if it werent for the quarter program there wouldnt be any 3rd tier grading services....they are here because the hobby has expanded unusually fast which made a " space " for them that was not there before
that being said in order to protect my hobby i feel it is important to load up as many as i can with knowledge of the market place as knowledge makes it stronger....thus i dont want a newbie getting taken or mislead ....as they might get run off and take whats left of their money with them....the money i ( we ) would like to be chasing our coins when its time to sell......and if they get run off ...they would probably tell their story to 10 others who will never come to play with us
mark
i read an ethics question you posted somewhere...its a no brainer but i couldnt believe the early answers i saw...mmmmmmmm
i will bet you said same....mmmmmmmmm too
either give it back or pay the 500......your choice
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
somehow somebody blew it.......a very large numismatic company emailed me something one day....but the sender errored and sent me their entire email mailing list
now this company is so big the the list is over 50 pages of completely filled up paper on my printer
the value of this list is well over 100,000 what do you do
1) sell it to 5 or 6 compediters for 35,000 each and put the 200,000 + in my pocket
2) inform them of their error and send it back to them
3) put it in my area " 51"..you never know.. it could be social security
4) destroy it and say nothing
5) start my own company now that i have everyones email
and your answer is???
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
"Who changes your diapers, punk? With grammar and brains of your size, you are lucky to have a job at Mickey D's then yet a secretary! "
ksteelhead..twits like you should feel lucky that someone like monsterman takes the time to try and educate most of the clueless collectors here on many aspects of the market..this guy knows his stuff and has coins that insulting rude no class twits like you could only dream of owning..maybe you should try listening to what somwone is saying and not how they say it or their typing skills..you might actaully learn something..it would also be my guess that monsterman could buy and sell you 100 times over..hence your comment about mcdonalds
somehow somebody blew it.......a very large numismatic company emailed me something one day....but the sender errored and sent me their entire email mailing list
now this company is so big the the list is over 50 pages of completely filled up paper on my printer
the value of this list is well over 100,000 what do you do
1) sell it to 5 or 6 compediters for 35,000 each and put the 200,000 + in my pocket
2) inform them of their error and send it back to them
3) put it in my area " 51"..you never know.. it could be social security
4) destroy it and say nothing
5) start my own company now that i have everyones email
and your answer is??? >>
uh . . . this one would clearly go in my area 51 with some other goodies I have there. You just never know when you might need it!
i respectfuly disagree...ntc has to fit in the grading spectrum somewhere..too tuff and no submissions....so they are looser to get submissions...if you were the ceo you would do the same thing as would i...its only their opinion and thats an art not a science..i dont think its an unreaonable grade...for a ntc coin...but if you continued and said " compared to a pcgs coin".... it is and you would be 100% correct
I can live with your opinion, but mine is different. A valid MS67 should be what the reasonable numismatist would grade the coin as. I take exception to NTC's statements that you can take their grade as conservative, and that they are "insured." That loose of a definition would lose them a lot of lawsuits. Now if they had a disclaimer, that might be a different story. I also don't believe this coin would be in the realm of 67 or anywhere near it. No, I haven't seen this coin in person, but I have seen several coins in NTC slabs. The only two I ever bought were two 1878 8TF's that were MS63 coins . . . but the slab said they were 7TF's at MS65. I did ok on the purchase.
Yes, there is gradeflation in everything, not just coins. Last time we talked about this I used Grade A lumber as an example. Grade A lumber today is not the same as it was 20 years ago. The quality of lumber has changed, and with it a lowering of the grading standard for lumber. The Grade A lumber you buy today may be the best on the market, but it's still not nearly as good as grade A lumber from 20 years ago (or really it may be more like 30 years ago). I'm not sure about the diamond market, and how constistent the ratings have stayed over time. I'm willing to bet that certain subjective criteria within the 4c's have changed over time. I know that the cut has changed.
Even considering gradeflation issues, NTC is not on the planet with this one. But that's just my opinion (and it's not insured).
I am amazed how arrogant some of you have become regarding PCGS. PCGS isn't even as arrogant to make claim that their pricing list is for "PCGS Only" coins. If you take the time to read How to Use the PCGS Price Guide and Important Information About the PCGS Price Guide, you will find that the PCGS Price Guide is an ASK list for "properly graded" (meaning coins grading by PCGS Standards) coins. NOT for PCGS graded coins ONLY. So there is nothing wrong with using the PCGS Price Guide quotes as long as the NTC coin has been "properly graded". Now, if the seller sees the coin graded in hand, and as he has stated, it appears that it would cross over (ie. it IS properly graded), then there is no problem, legal, ethical, or otherwise.
If PCGS does not cross over the coin, there still should not be a problem since grading is NOT A SCIENCE, BUT AN OPINION! I don't see anybody screaming fire and brimstone when a seller represents a PCGS coin at a certain grade and claiming that it would "upgrade" and charging "outrageously" based on the PCGS Price Guide at the possible "upgrade" teir. I do not know David Hall personally, but if he is the man of integrity that many PCGS "disciples" claim he is, I'm sure he would be hurt to see how much of a ruckus you children have been causing.
Don't disgrace the art of grading over some damned label on a piece of plastic.
Monthly giveaways for members AND guests!! Current giveaways include foreign mint sets!!!! www.Numismatic-Playground.com
If PCGS does not cross over the coin, there still should not be a problem since grading is NOT A SCIENCE, BUT AN OPINION! I don't see anybody screaming fire and brimstone when a seller represents a PCGS coin at a certain grade and claiming that it would "upgrade" and charging "outrageously" based on the PCGS Price Guide at the possible "upgrade" teir.
When you wrap a piece of plastic around the coin and a professional opinion, and then provide a guarantee and/or insurance -- it is far more than an opinion. Especially when you are talking about a five figure coin. Not even the richest person on this board likes to lose $12k. PCGS does back up their opinion, and that counts.
"One side says the auction is unethical. The other side says the auction is not illegal."
Mark for the first time that I can think of, you're wrong.
Both sides say the auction is unethical. One side says the auction is illegal. I'm trying to find out, what is illegal about this auction so I can inform eBay about this violation of the law.
monsterman said:
<< <i>all you guys who said or think this
>>>>>>>>>I can't see that the seller has done anything wrong>>>>
are full of shi$$
it is obvious to me that you need to do new thinking..how would you like for your wife to surprise you for your birthday with this 12,000 coin....oh...you butt just tightened up did it!!!!!!!!!!
while cavet emptor is a key to buying the fact that this ad says >>>PCGS LISTS THIS COIN AT A WHOPPING $55,000.OO>> is misleading as to its real value and HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER ON THE REAL VALUE OF THIS COIN....NONE WHAT SO EVER...PERIOD
then add this
>>>>YOU DON'T SEE THIS COIN AT THIS GRADE UP FOR AUCTION THAT OFTEN this kind of crapp is so malicious its not even close
and if by chance you come into my court as a defendant i will put you under the jail not in it
btw..the acid test is why dont the " i dont see anything wrong with it " idiots here put your money where your mouth is and buy it for 12,000...if its good for the goose its good for the gander
i will check back on the bids later!!!!!! >>
monsterman starts off by insulting people, and then claims that this seller is doing something illegal, so illegal that he would put him under the jail not in it.
I (tlhoy) asked monsterman a question.
"Ok "judge", Please tell the people that "are full of shi$$" what is illegal about this auction."
So far all I got from monsterman are more insults.
"poor glenn he missed english class where the definition of hyperbole was explained" "here is good ole glenn......do you want glenn for a neighbor when thats how he thinks....he probably thinks is ok to....well never mind ...use your imagination" "i dont take that from truck drivers"
Glenn, you left out the part of my quote about the "personalities" involved - I know how MM speaks and exaggerates to make his points.
And, I believe most of his comments were speaking to a lack of ethics, not illegalities. He was speaking about HIS court of law, not the one in our own legal system.
<< <i>Glenn, you left out the part of my quote about the "personalities" involved - I know how MM speaks and exaggerates to make his points.
And, I believe most of his comments were speaking to a lack of ethics, not illegalities. He was speaking about HIS court of law, not the one in our own legal system.
<< <i>Glenn, you left out the part of my quote about the "personalities" involved - I know how MM speaks and exaggerates to make his points.
And, I believe most of his comments were speaking to a lack of ethics, not illegalities. He was speaking about HIS court of law, not the one in our own legal system.
Am I still wrong? >>
Yes, MM is sort of our own forum Dennis Rodman. >>
I knew there was something about him. Must have hit his head too many times on the hoop.
>>>>Yes, MM is sort of our own forum Dennis Rodman.
dennis is a pretty good guy in person...his " image" was just a ruse to get publicity...and it worked...you either like him or hated im but everyone knew who he was ...so it worked for him
sorta like ali....you either liked him or disliked him...but everyone knew who he was
as far as what we were talking about here .....has all changed as the seller has made several revisions to his discription now and has now properly informed prospective buyers of the facts imho
like it or not ...we have raised the level of thinking on this board and sometimes blasted each other taking stances on our opinions, ideas, thoughts and beliefs
and if you think about it.....thats the way it was back in 1776 when the founding fathers were hammering out the declaration of independence....
why alexander...you truck driver ...errr wagon driver...we should say "we the people"......
george....it appears to me to be misleading....we should create a document that is living and breathing and flexible so it can change with the times
ben....how about the right to bear arms???
look here punk...."we the people" have to be able to pick up our arms when we as a people are overly oppressed by the government we are about to form....so get that in there too!!!
****conclusion
this board has had some great thought and mental exercise....something that is needed to stimulate progress
....ks....i will get into a foxhole anytime with you ....and watch your back....as well as any of you guys here
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Happens all the time. I saw a lady come in to a coin shop one day with a similar issue, except she only got stuck for about $20k. Well, it might have well been $200,000 because she didn't have it to lose. These were in Tulvin slabs, and the whole thing made me want to just walk outside and toss my cookies.
>>>> here is a sad NTC story posted today over on RCC
that is sad....as i said earlier i just was involved with the exact same thing.....a ny telemarketer...and this was an elderly lady and her husband didnt know she was doing it.....her loss was 400,000 over half of thier retirement....it turned out ok for her as we had to threathen the telemarketer with prosecution ....and she had a 95% recovery...it still cost her 20,000
and a tongue lashing from her husband that i could hear 1,000 miles away
monsterman
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Just a quick thought on this "truck driver" thing mentioned above: I now have a PhD in Finance and am a tenured university professor. When I was a kid (about 10 years old), I was in the car with my Dad and made some wise-a$$ comment about some "loser ditch digger" that I saw on the side of the road. My Dad gave me a sharp backhand slap and said, "don't you ever knock a working man!"
To this day, I respect anyone who does his/her job well, regardless of what the job is. And, I have no respect for some of my snobby colleagues who look down on blue collar workers.
Argue coins and grading opinions here, that's what the forum is for, but don't knock someone for what they do for a living.
Mike
Coppernicus
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
that >>>ks>>> guy is a truck driver ...pure and simple.....tabaco chewin....gruntin and fartin.... ole truck driver...............period!!!!!!!!!!!
what we didnt tell ya is...when he is drivin...am in the sleeper nappin
then its my turn.....and i have to tell ya...i chew more tabaco than he does and i can grunt and fart louder too...maybe....in fact thats how i wake him up..........he says.........gezzzzzzzzz monsterman why dont you bottle that shi$ and sell it to the war department
after a cruise through mcdonalds and a visit to the fry technician it starts all over again...fartin that is
you see i call him ole steelheader*....ya see one day when we had seperate trucks he said to me ....hey punk..and i said yes`em...if we sell one of these trucks and run the other 24/7 we can save 200,000 by having one rig....we will split it and buy coins....and we did
and............. if we can ever figure out how to bottle our self induced " propane" we wont have any gas bills either....then we can buy some more coins
but mike i have to say....... " we" ( me and my partner ole steelheader) agree with you..and we arent knockin the blue collars
heck thats us...why would we....we haul dynomite .....driving 1200 miles a day between us x $3.00 per mile ( the going danger rate after 911 ) = $3,600 divided by 2....my math says thats 1,800 each per day...we only work 20 days a month ...for a nice monthly check of 36,000 each...and hey.....we`re each sleeping half the time ...taint that bad a deal leme tell ya
>>>>I have no respect for some of my snobby colleagues who look down on blue collar workers.>>>>
and thats excatly why we wear tuxes...ok...ok so its painted on the t-shirt...its still tux lookin
>>>don't knock someone for what they do for a living
thats exactly what we tell our banker....and our stockbroker..and our financial planner...
monsterman
* steelheader....he got that name because when he wants to turn right....and i say left...he goes right..anyway....thus the name steelheader..its as hard as a rock...now if you ask him...he will tell ya.... the girls call him that....why...i dun no
of couse since randi came ...that darlin little grand baby of his... who has him wraped around her little finger so hard...i have been thinking about callin him marshmellow :-)
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
That seller is a no good slime ball and anyone that is saying that he is not doing anything wrong is full of it. NTC coins have proven to fleece the unsuspecting by using grading standards that are not normal and it is downright criminal to represent this coin, with the price listed as being equal to other grading standards. Did anyone see the story I posted earlier, this is garbage and needs to stop.
Isn't this a violation of eBay rules? Selling over-graded junk. Please report this seller, thanks. >>
Not a violation of eBay rules at all. If auctions like this succeed, eBay and its shareholders prosper. The coin business on eBay is this decade's variation on an old theme formerly played to excess by salesmen of snake oil, aluminum siding, and junk bonds, all of which add to our national heritage and gross national product. There's no law prohibiting rich fools from spreading their wealth around.
Thankfully, the starting bid is too high to attract casual fools or anyone on this forum.
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
Comments
I don't care how much money MM has, he started the insults. Read the thread.
I can put a 2003 nickel, fresh out of a bank roll, up for auction on ebay.
I can start it at $2,000.00 if I choose to.
I can say its unc and compare prices to whatever guide I happen to like.
You can't do anything about it.
To be more correct and not misleading, he should not have said
<< <i>PCGS LISTS THIS COIN AT A WHOPPING $55,000.OO. >>
. Using the words "THIS COIN" is misleading with it's reference to PCGS.
On the other hand, there may be a number of reasons the bid starts at $12K. Perhaps it's a sale on consignment. Or maybe he recently purchased the coin himself on a similar auction and is passing this rare find on to someone else.
Personally, I would like to know what 8TF VAM it is. Another reason that it could go at a higher reserve price (even though this is not mentioned). Some grading companies weren't looking for or grading VAMs until just recently.
I've seen a lot of eBay scum lately but other than the faulty reference wording in regards to PCGS, I'm not convinced of any willful malicious wrong-doing here.
-------------
A penny saved is a government oversight.
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
<< <i>CalGold is someone who bashes just about every coin posted here >>
Well Eric it all depends upon what you consider "bashing." As I recall it I said that the Morgan you posted looked baggy and had a staple scratch. And low and behold when you got it in hand it turned out to be what? Baggy and had a staple scratch. That's not bashing, that's just giving an honest description of what was presented. Do you think it would be better if we all posted praises of messed up coins here? I don't. I think these boards are to help develop connoisseurship, and you cannot do that without critical evaluation and discussion. I never attacked or insulted you. I only commented on the surface preservation of a coin. If you took that to be an attack on yourself as a person, perhaps you need to learn to separate the object at hand from your persona.
CG
>>>>Homer, but most great registry sets are only great because of one reason.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
well to be frank i know many collectors ( a music teacher in la comes to mind ) who worked his butt off collecting the coolest comemms ....and he did it on a music teachers salary.....and his coins will make your heart stop...so no...money is not the only thing needed...but if it was....no problem...go make yourself worth more and the problem is solved...its just that easy!!
but then again....if your elevator doesnt go to the top ..as your ethics shows yours doesnt....money would be a problem for you...that being said i see your pain ...as you are rife with self esteem issues
calgold
i`ll be thanking you for watching my back...i will be your wingman anytime
as for all those who dont see a ethics problem ..............mmmmm
one would be surprised at the total lack of grey matter on your part... however taking it to another level of thinking ...one can only deduce from the facts at hand.... that if you dont see an ethics problem here you are one of those slimmy little slimeballs scamming off others ...lying ...cheatin and stealin
really ...its only logical ..isnt it!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
One side says the auction is unethical.
The other side says the auction is not illegal.
Each side is arguing with the other.
BUT, BOTH sides are right.
So, quit fighting, you knuckleheads!
<< <i>Come on your Honor, can't you answer a simple legal question from a low life uneducated truck driver?
You're a judge this should be easy for you.
What is illegal about this auction? What can we report to eBay to get this auction pulled? >>
<< <i>One side says the auction is unethical.
The other side says the auction is not illegal.
Each side is arguing with the other.
BUT, BOTH sides are right.
So, quit fighting, you knuckleheads!
>>
E PLVRIBVS VNVM
<< <i>After weeding through the words and considering the various personalities, here is my brief interpretation/analysis/synopsis of this unnecessarily lengthy, though somewhat entertaining thread:
One side says the auction is unethical.
The other side says the auction is not illegal.
Each side is arguing with the other.
BUT, BOTH sides are right.
So, quit fighting, you knuckleheads!
But, I'm having fun!
<< <i>When you wrestle with a pig in the mud you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it. >>
<< <i>One side says the auction is unethical.
The other side says the auction is not illegal.
Each side is arguing with the other.
BUT, BOTH sides are right. >>
Conversely, this means....YOU'RE ALL WRONG!!!
(Just funnin')
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
VAM-6 I believe. And no, you don't usually see VAM-6 coins in higher grades.
Free Trial
un•eth•i•cal•ly adverb
unethical (adj) unprincipled, immoral, wrong, bad, unscrupulous, dishonorable, disreputable, corrupt, depraved
Antonym: ethical
k can you say oink!
Unethical behavior is not necessarily illegal; nonetheless it is detrimental to this hobby.
Put an end to this diversion of defending unethical behavior.
I can spell so I must be smart or I know how to cut and paste and press F7, big woop!
What do all of you think the seller is doing in his auction? Here are three different scenarios based on real legal concepts. Take your pick.
Legal concepts:
1. puffing
n. the exaggeration of the good points of a product, a business, real property and the prospects for future rise in value, profits and growth. Since a certain amount of "puffing" can be expected of any salesman, it cannot be the basis of a lawsuit for fraud or breach of contract unless the exaggeration exceeds the reality. However, if the puffery includes outright lies or has no basis in fact ("Sears Roebuck is building next door to your store site") a legal action for rescission of the contract or for fraud against the seller is possible.
2. misrepresentation
n. the crime of misstating facts to obtain money, goods or benefits of another to which the accused is not entitled. Examples: a person a) falsely claims to represent a charity to obtain a donation which he/she keeps; b) says a painting is a genuine Jackson Pollock when it is a fake and thus is able to sell it for a price much greater than its true value. Misrepresentation is also called "false pretenses."
3. fraud
n. the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right. A party who has lost something due to fraud is entitled to file a lawsuit for damages against the party acting fraudulently, and the damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud. Quite often there are several persons involved in a scheme to commit fraud and each and all may be liable for the total damages. Inherent in fraud is an unjust advantage over another which injures that person or entity. It includes failing to point out a known mistake in a contract or other writing (such as a deed), or not revealing a fact which he/she has a duty to communicate, such as a survey which shows there are only 10 acres of land being purchased and not 20 as originally understood. Constructive fraud can be proved by a showing of breach of legal duty (like using the trust funds held for another in an investment in one's own business) without direct proof of fraud or fraudulent intent. Extrinsic fraud occurs when deceit is employed to keep someone from exercising a right, such as a fair trial, by hiding evidence or misleading the opposing party in a lawsuit. Since fraud is intended to employ dishonesty to deprive another of money, property or a right, it can also be a crime for which the fraudulent person(s) can be charged, tried and convicted. Borderline overreaching or taking advantage of another's naiveté involving smaller amounts is often overlooked by law enforcement, which suggests the victim seek a "civil remedy" (i.e., sue). However, increasingly fraud, which has victimized a large segment of the public (even in individually small amounts), has become the target of consumer fraud divisions in the offices of district attorneys and attorneys general.
Semper ubi sub ubi
you are correct.....i know one truck driver who has been hauling explosives for 30 years....one ticket and he is fired...end of job...period..no tolerance at all....real tuff insurance regs...fact is... truckers do run the country and without them we would be sol and i stand corrected
thus i think i will stick to " fry technician "..in order to be politically correct
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
is misleading as to its real value and HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER ON THE REAL VALUE OF THIS COIN....NONE WHAT SO EVER...PERIOD
Who, excepting you, on this forum really cares about this coin's "real value"? No price guide establishes a coin's "real value." If someone buys this NTC holdered coin for $12,000 and happily keeps it, $12,000 must be the "real value," as measured in dollars, of this coin to its new owner.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Truthfully, the culprit in this whole matter is NTC, and other TPG's who are really misrepresenting coins with an unreasonable grade.
If I was a "newbie" and saw this auction, I might think the coin is a good value at $12k. But, being the skeptic, I want to know who graded it MS67 and what that means as far as protecting the value of the coin. So I look up www.numistrust.com to see if this company stands behind it's grade.
Here are some statements made on the Numistrust site:
The Numistrust corporation is your premiere coin grading service for establishing the grade of your coin based assets. Our professional grading staff is the best in the grading business.
Ok, well this is puffing. Every TPG says this, so I'm not going to rely on it.
We are a fully insured, comprehensive coin grading service that prides itself on conservative grading procedures and the best in customer support. Our mission is to take the uncertainty out of third party grading by providing a safe and stable grading standard for the coin community to rely on and trust in.
Hmmm. This one interests me . . . "fully insured." So does "to rely on and trust in." Sounds like they have insurance in case the coin is not really an MS67 and I need to get my money back if the coin is not graded properly. This seems like more than puffing and something I might rely on just like they say they want me to.
Well, I read every page on the site and they don't say disclaim any liability. So, it must be safe to buy the coin!
Morgannut, I think it takes a little different slant when an independent grading service puts a grade on it. Everyone expects the seller to push the coin, and may even fudge some on the grade, like your VF to EF example. But an insured independent grading service????
>>If someone buys this NTC holdered coin for $12,000 and happily keeps it, $12,000 must be the "real value," as measured in dollars, of this coin to its new owner.>>>
i hope he has some money left to buy your coins when you want to sell them...in fact he can sell this coin and take all the cash he gets back...and go.....to the movies too
dmwjr
>>>Truthfully, the culprit in this whole matter is NTC, and other TPG's who are really misrepresenting coins with an unreasonable grade. >>>
i respectfuly disagree...ntc has to fit in the grading spectrum somewhere..too tuff and no submissions....so they are looser to get submissions...if you were the ceo you would do the same thing as would i...its only their opinion and thats an art not a science..i dont think its an unreaonable grade...for a ntc coin...but if you continued and said " compared to a pcgs coin".... it is and you would be 100% correct
..the problem here is still with the seller and how he mentions a price list of another grading service where as the buyer is lead to believe or conclude that it is relevant to the coin he is wanting to buy...when in fact it is not relevant at all
morgannut2
>>>What everyone knows here is that it's a nice coin but certainly overgraded by this company
again i say it is not clearly over graded..... by ntc standards....it is by pcgs`s standards...and it is by your standards as well as mine...but not by ntc`s
which brings me to a great subject
question
is there such a thing as gradeflation????..yes or no
it is really a dumb question...of course there is...it has always been my belief that the services are ranking coins....can anyone contest that??
ok...here is another one
is there a cartel in the coin market??? yes or no
i think there is...oh dont think so
ok...try this
diamonds are carteled to maintain prices which is good for all the players in that market....they match supply with demand....what would happen if the grading services cut out the gradeflation and put the real grades on the coins this month.... they would create so much market value so fast they would crash the market...and they would be out of business as well as many dealers and wholesalers....and all our holdings would be worth less
ok....now you run pcgs...and you know the market can absorb 1 millon a day in new market value that pcgs creates....thus if the fun show traded 60 million which is twice the absorbtion rate ability...wouldnt it be wise for you to tighten up and not create value that the market cant absorb right now.... it would not be wise to flood the market would it??....and hey...you make more money doing it!! because next month all those coins you downgraded will be sent in again!!!! thats brilliant....control the market and make more money doing it
does anyone think there are players who will submit 3,000 coins at once and pay 300,000 in fees...you bet there is...many of them...you think they submit them slabed or raw....you think its fun to pay 300,000 in cash for 3,000 coins and get 659 downgrades and 212 upgrades and be out 658,000 in market value....oh it happens ...and to keep it from happening to you you need to know the money supply condition....just like the fed and it`s m-1 and m-2 and m-3
btw i have seen them make 1,000,000 too.....in a day
where am i going with all this....this is big business and if it werent for the quarter program there wouldnt be any 3rd tier grading services....they are here because the hobby has expanded unusually fast which made a " space " for them that was not there before
that being said in order to protect my hobby i feel it is important to load up as many as i can with knowledge of the market place as knowledge makes it stronger....thus i dont want a newbie getting taken or mislead ....as they might get run off and take whats left of their money with them....the money i ( we ) would like to be chasing our coins when its time to sell......and if they get run off ...they would probably tell their story to 10 others who will never come to play with us
mark
i read an ethics question you posted somewhere...its a no brainer but i couldnt believe the early answers i saw...mmmmmmmm
i will bet you said same....mmmmmmmmm too
either give it back or pay the 500......your choice
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
somehow somebody blew it.......a very large numismatic company emailed me something one day....but the sender errored and sent me their entire email mailing list
now this company is so big the the list is over 50 pages of completely filled up paper on my printer
the value of this list is well over 100,000 what do you do
1) sell it to 5 or 6 compediters for 35,000 each and put the 200,000 + in my pocket
2) inform them of their error and send it back to them
3) put it in my area " 51"..you never know.. it could be social security
4) destroy it and say nothing
5) start my own company now that i have everyones email
and your answer is???
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
ksteelhead..twits like you should feel lucky that someone like monsterman takes the time to try and educate most of the clueless collectors here on many aspects of the market..this guy knows his stuff and has coins that insulting rude no class twits like you could only dream of owning..maybe you should try listening to what somwone is saying and not how they say it or their typing skills..you might actaully learn something..it would also be my guess that monsterman could buy and sell you 100 times over..hence your comment about mcdonalds
<< <i>************* ethics question**************
somehow somebody blew it.......a very large numismatic company emailed me something one day....but the sender errored and sent me their entire email mailing list
now this company is so big the the list is over 50 pages of completely filled up paper on my printer
the value of this list is well over 100,000 what do you do
1) sell it to 5 or 6 compediters for 35,000 each and put the 200,000 + in my pocket
2) inform them of their error and send it back to them
3) put it in my area " 51"..you never know.. it could be social security
4) destroy it and say nothing
5) start my own company now that i have everyones email
and your answer is??? >>
uh . . . this one would clearly go in my area 51 with some other goodies I have there. You just never know when you might need it!
I can live with your opinion, but mine is different. A valid MS67 should be what the reasonable numismatist would grade the coin as. I take exception to NTC's statements that you can take their grade as conservative, and that they are "insured." That loose of a definition would lose them a lot of lawsuits. Now if they had a disclaimer, that might be a different story. I also don't believe this coin would be in the realm of 67 or anywhere near it. No, I haven't seen this coin in person, but I have seen several coins in NTC slabs. The only two I ever bought were two 1878 8TF's that were MS63 coins . . . but the slab said they were 7TF's at MS65. I did ok on the purchase.
Yes, there is gradeflation in everything, not just coins. Last time we talked about this I used Grade A lumber as an example. Grade A lumber today is not the same as it was 20 years ago. The quality of lumber has changed, and with it a lowering of the grading standard for lumber. The Grade A lumber you buy today may be the best on the market, but it's still not nearly as good as grade A lumber from 20 years ago (or really it may be more like 30 years ago). I'm not sure about the diamond market, and how constistent the ratings have stayed over time. I'm willing to bet that certain subjective criteria within the 4c's have changed over time. I know that the cut has changed.
Even considering gradeflation issues, NTC is not on the planet with this one. But that's just my opinion (and it's not insured).
If PCGS does not cross over the coin, there still should not be a problem since grading is NOT A SCIENCE, BUT AN OPINION! I don't see anybody screaming fire and brimstone when a seller represents a PCGS coin at a certain grade and claiming that it would "upgrade" and charging "outrageously" based on the PCGS Price Guide at the possible "upgrade" teir. I do not know David Hall personally, but if he is the man of integrity that many PCGS "disciples" claim he is, I'm sure he would be hurt to see how much of a ruckus you children have been causing.
Don't disgrace the art of grading over some damned label on a piece of plastic.
www.Numismatic-Playground.com
When you wrap a piece of plastic around the coin and a professional opinion, and then provide a guarantee and/or insurance -- it is far more than an opinion. Especially when you are talking about a five figure coin. Not even the richest person on this board likes to lose $12k. PCGS does back up their opinion, and that counts.
Let's just say it is an MS64 . . .
Description......Desig.............63............ 64..............65................66..................67
1878................ 8TF..............170...........465..........1500...........12500.............55000
"One side says the auction is unethical.
The other side says the auction is not illegal."
Mark for the first time that I can think of, you're wrong.
Both sides say the auction is unethical.
One side says the auction is illegal.
I'm trying to find out, what is illegal about this auction so I can inform eBay about this violation of the law.
monsterman said:
<< <i>all you guys who said or think this
>>>>>>>>>I can't see that the seller has done anything wrong>>>>
are full of shi$$
it is obvious to me that you need to do new thinking..how would you like for your wife to surprise you for your birthday with this 12,000 coin....oh...you butt just tightened up did it!!!!!!!!!!
while cavet emptor is a key to buying the fact that this ad says
>>>PCGS LISTS THIS COIN AT A WHOPPING $55,000.OO>>
is misleading as to its real value and HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER ON THE REAL VALUE OF THIS COIN....NONE WHAT SO EVER...PERIOD
then add this
>>>>YOU DON'T SEE THIS COIN AT THIS GRADE UP FOR AUCTION THAT OFTEN
this kind of crapp is so malicious its not even close
and if by chance you come into my court as a defendant i will put you under the jail not in it
btw..the acid test is
why dont the " i dont see anything wrong with it " idiots here put your money where your mouth is and buy it for 12,000...if its good for the goose its good for the gander
i will check back on the bids later!!!!!! >>
monsterman starts off by insulting people, and then claims that this seller is doing something illegal, so illegal that he would put him under the jail not in it.
I (tlhoy) asked monsterman a question.
"Ok "judge", Please tell the people that "are full of shi$$" what is illegal about this auction."
So far all I got from monsterman are more insults.
"poor glenn he missed english class where the definition of hyperbole was explained"
"here is good ole glenn......do you want glenn for a neighbor when thats how he thinks....he probably thinks is ok to....well never mind ...use your imagination"
"i dont take that from truck drivers"
And, I believe most of his comments were speaking to a lack of ethics, not illegalities. He was speaking about HIS court of law, not the one in our own legal system.
Am I still wrong?
<< <i>Glenn, you left out the part of my quote about the "personalities" involved - I know how MM speaks and exaggerates to make his points.
And, I believe most of his comments were speaking to a lack of ethics, not illegalities. He was speaking about HIS court of law, not the one in our own legal system.
Am I still wrong?
Yes, MM is sort of our own forum Dennis Rodman.
<< <i>
<< <i>Glenn, you left out the part of my quote about the "personalities" involved - I know how MM speaks and exaggerates to make his points.
And, I believe most of his comments were speaking to a lack of ethics, not illegalities. He was speaking about HIS court of law, not the one in our own legal system.
Am I still wrong?
Yes, MM is sort of our own forum Dennis Rodman. >>
I knew there was something about him. Must have hit his head too many times on the hoop.
dennis is a pretty good guy in person...his " image" was just a ruse to get publicity...and it worked...you either like him or hated im but everyone knew who he was ...so it worked for him
sorta like ali....you either liked him or disliked him...but everyone knew who he was
as far as what we were talking about here .....has all changed as the seller has made several revisions to his discription now and has now properly informed prospective buyers of the facts imho
like it or not ...we have raised the level of thinking on this board and sometimes blasted each other taking stances on our opinions, ideas, thoughts and beliefs
and if you think about it.....thats the way it was back in 1776 when the founding fathers were hammering out the declaration of independence....
why alexander...you truck driver ...errr wagon driver...we should say "we the people"......
george....it appears to me to be misleading....we should create a document that is living and breathing and flexible so it can change with the times
ben....how about the right to bear arms???
look here punk...."we the people" have to be able to pick up our arms when we as a people are overly oppressed by the government we are about to form....so get that in there too!!!
****conclusion
this board has had some great thought and mental exercise....something that is needed to stimulate progress
....ks....i will get into a foxhole anytime with you ....and watch your back....as well as any of you guys here
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
that is sad....as i said earlier i just was involved with the exact same thing.....a ny telemarketer...and this was an elderly lady and her husband didnt know she was doing it.....her loss was 400,000 over half of thier retirement....it turned out ok for her as we had to threathen the telemarketer with prosecution ....and she had a 95% recovery...it still cost her 20,000
and a tongue lashing from her husband that i could hear 1,000 miles away
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
To this day, I respect anyone who does his/her job well, regardless of what the job is. And, I have no respect for some of my snobby colleagues who look down on blue collar workers.
Argue coins and grading opinions here, that's what the forum is for, but don't knock someone for what they do for a living.
Mike
Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
that >>>ks>>> guy is a truck driver ...pure and simple.....tabaco chewin....gruntin and fartin.... ole truck driver...............period!!!!!!!!!!!
what we didnt tell ya is...when he is drivin...am in the sleeper nappin
then its my turn.....and i have to tell ya...i chew more tabaco than he does and i can grunt and fart louder too...maybe....in fact thats how i wake him up..........he says.........gezzzzzzzzz monsterman why dont you bottle that shi$ and sell it to the war department
after a cruise through mcdonalds and a visit to the fry technician it starts all over again...fartin that is
you see i call him ole steelheader*....ya see one day when we had seperate trucks he said to me ....hey punk..and i said yes`em...if we sell one of these trucks and run the other 24/7 we can save 200,000 by having one rig....we will split it and buy coins....and we did
and............. if we can ever figure out how to bottle our self induced " propane" we wont have any gas bills either....then we can buy some more coins
but mike i have to say....... " we" ( me and my partner ole steelheader) agree with you..and we arent knockin the blue collars
heck thats us...why would we....we haul dynomite .....driving 1200 miles a day between us x $3.00 per mile ( the going danger rate after 911 ) = $3,600 divided by 2....my math says thats 1,800 each per day...we only work 20 days a month ...for a nice monthly check of 36,000 each...and hey.....we`re each sleeping half the time ...taint that bad a deal leme tell ya
>>>>I have no respect for some of my snobby colleagues who look down on blue collar workers.>>>>
and thats excatly why we wear tuxes...ok...ok so its painted on the t-shirt...its still tux lookin
>>>don't knock someone for what they do for a living
thats exactly what we tell our banker....and our stockbroker..and our financial planner...
monsterman
* steelheader....he got that name because when he wants to turn right....and i say left...he goes right..anyway....thus the name steelheader..its as hard as a rock...now if you ask him...he will tell ya.... the girls call him that....why...i dun no
of couse since randi came ...that darlin little grand baby of his... who has him wraped around her little finger so hard...i have been thinking about callin him marshmellow :-)
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>Link...12,000 for an MS67 coin
Isn't this a violation of eBay rules? Selling over-graded junk. Please report this seller, thanks. >>
Not a violation of eBay rules at all. If auctions like this succeed, eBay and its shareholders prosper. The coin business on eBay is this decade's variation on an old theme formerly played to excess by salesmen of snake oil, aluminum siding, and junk bonds, all of which add to our national heritage and gross national product. There's no law prohibiting rich fools from spreading their wealth around.
Thankfully, the starting bid is too high to attract casual fools or anyone on this forum.
>>Not a violation of eBay rules at all>>
as you can see the seller has amended several times ( probably due to this board) thus what you read now was not what was written then
monsterman
( trucker )
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language