NTC scam on ebay
Wolf359
Posts: 7,656 ✭✭✭
Link...12,000 for an MS67 coin
Isn't this a violation of eBay rules? Selling over-graded junk. Please report this seller, thanks.
Isn't this a violation of eBay rules? Selling over-graded junk. Please report this seller, thanks.
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Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
to sell a coin for $12,000 on eBay is a problem.
But, hey, some dealers feel threatened when people point that out. Guess it cuts down on
their profit margins.
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<< <i>Since you swap coins in and out of NTC holders without tools, or signs of detection... >>
NO you can't.
It's likely the coin is not a MS-67...BUT do you know that for sure????
Too bad the coin listed does not have a little die break...THEN it would be worth it!
If the coin in the slab is not the coin slabbed (e.g. to your point of cracking it and sticking in a wrong coin) , well then that's fraud -- but one can't assume that, can one?
And (perhaps) suggesting a price limit for eBay listed coins -- well, that's another conversation but if you can buy a car, etc., for several thousand, why not a coin?
As far as NTC (or other commonly referred to as 3rd tier slabs), you also can't make the assumption that the coin is improperly graded -- you should wait to see the coin in hand to make that judgement...and if the seller agrees to give you a MBG, then you can have an opportunity to examine it. If the seller doesn't, then that's OK too -- just don't bid. I think common sense prevails here -- and to suggest that a person who has enough $$ to bid $12k for a coin on eBay doesn't have some sense of business accumen or common sense...well, I would (hopefully) have to disagree
To the (perceived) improper grading point on 3rd tier slabs -- this might be true but it also works both ways. I bought a 16-P Merc in a 3rd tier slab for like $70, or something, and today it is in a PCGS 66FB holder. I also bought a solid 26-P Merc in a 3rd tier slab holder for like $120, and that found it's way in to a PCGS 65FB holder. Here's my point -- the 3rd tier grading may not be accurate, but it might not be accurate both ways. Imagine for a second the coin is listed as a 65 in a 3rd tier slab and you get it...and it makes it in to a 66 holder, your psyched, right? I also know that sometimes they cross to PCGS at the same grade...ask anyone here, that does happen.
The reality is that I think the trepidation people have with these 3rd tier slabs (both ways + and/or - on grade) is that the 3rd tier slabbers are incosistent. Sometimes they overgrade and sometimes they undergrade...and sometimes they're right on.
So my thoughts are if the seller "checks out" and will offer an MBG for you to look at the coin, one can then decide whether or not to purchase it, and make up his or her mind then.
By the way -- disclaimer -- I don't collect Morgans and I have no idea who the seller is
In my experience if you squeeze that glass shell just right, it pops out and the slab comes apart. I've got a 1921-D NTC MS64 at home. Want to use it?
Too bad the coin listed does not have a little die break...THEN it would be worth it!
Not a die break, but a 8TF rare die variety may sell for thousands over common price. Can't
image it would be worth 12K though...that would be a new price record.
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<< <i>In my experience if you squeeze that glass shell just right, it pops out and the slab comes apart. >>
OK, Kreskin. If you say so.
NoEbayAuctionsForNow
>>>>>>>>>I can't see that the seller has done anything wrong>>>>
are full of shi$$
it is obvious to me that you need to do new thinking..how would you like for your wife to surprise you for your birthday with this 12,000 coin....oh...you butt just tightened up did it!!!!!!!!!!
while cavet emptor is a key to buying the fact that this ad says
>>>PCGS LISTS THIS COIN AT A WHOPPING $55,000.OO>>
is misleading as to its real value and HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER ON THE REAL VALUE OF THIS COIN....NONE WHAT SO EVER...PERIOD
then add this
>>>>YOU DON'T SEE THIS COIN AT THIS GRADE UP FOR AUCTION THAT OFTEN
this kind of crapp is so malicious its not even close
and if by chance you come into my court as a defendant i will put you under the jail not in it
btw..the acid test is
why dont the " i dont see anything wrong with it " idiots here put your money where your mouth is and buy it for 12,000...if its good for the goose its good for the gander
i will check back on the bids later!!!!!!
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>all you guys who said or think this
>>>>>>>>>I can't see that the seller has done anything wrong>>>>
are full of shi$$
it is obvious to me that you need to do new thinking..how would you like for your wife to surprise you for your birthday with this 12,000 coin....oh...you butt just tightened up did it!!!!!!!!!!
while cavet emptor is a key to buying the fact that this ad says
>>>PCGS LISTS THIS COIN AT A WHOPPING $55,000.OO>>
is misleading as to its real value and HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER ON THE REAL VALUE OF THIS COIN....NONE WHAT SO EVER...PERIOD
then add this
>>>>YOU DON'T SEE THIS COIN AT THIS GRADE UP FOR AUCTION THAT OFTEN
this kind of crapp is so malicious its not even close
and if by chance you come into my court as a defendant i will put you under the jail not in it
btw..the acid test is
why dont the " i dont see anything wrong with it " idiots here put your money where your mouth is and buy it for 12,000...if its good for the goose its good for the gander
i will check back on the bids later!!!!!!
monsterman >>
Weird! You're claiming its a scam yet you tell people to bid on it.
Also, what's with your challenge for people to bid on the coin (put their money here their mouths are) if they're really ok with it? You, yourself, see lots of coins that you think are legitimate, but still decide to pass on them don't you?
"Down boy"!
>>>Weird! You're claiming its a scam yet you tell people to bid on it.
he missed english class where the definition of hyperbole was explained
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
im surprised at you....werent you the one chatting about ethics on another thread
this is...just that...ETHICS........
and poor ethics is bad for any hobby or market as it only has negatives
>>>MM, why don't you take your issues up with the seller (and/or Ebay), rather than those here who have opined he wasn't breaking any rules on Ebay? I "ask" that, even though I don't like what the seller is doing either.>>>>
why....when too many people have their head in the sand then it is best for the rest to explain the extraction process...i do believe our fore fathers "opined" to segregate....i do believe our fore fathers " opined" it ok when it came to the jewish solution in germany..i could go on for months but you get the drift...when your wrong your wrong....period
Also, what's with your challenge for people to bid on the coin (put their money here their mouths are) if they're really ok with it? You, yourself, see lots of coins that you think are legitimate, but still decide to pass on them don't you?>>>>>
did you miss class too ....the day the prof explained hyperbole
"Down boy"! >>>>
no my son....i thought you would of enlighten the unkowing as to such an ethical endeavor.....now rise up my son and inform them
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Instead, why not do what I did (as in contact the seller)?
incase nobody noticed the demand for coins starts at the top ( the best ) and goes downward.....and the price does so too but not accordingly...by that i mean
ms 68.....pop 1........20,000
ms 67 ....pop 12.......5,000
ms 66.....pop 121.....1,000
i think its a fact that if you lined up the 12 ms 67 coins from the best to the worst i will bet the #1 67 is just like the 68....and the # 12 ms 67 coin is just like the best ms 66
as we all have observed there is gradeflation and in theory over time the best will be recognozed and so on down the line....but the fact remains the big money or value is at the top as you can see where as the 3rd or 4th best is no where near as valueable as the top 2
that being said.....it is obviuosly fraudulant to say that this is a ntc ms 67 and elude to or mention anothers price sheet of values
if the coin was soooooo valueable then put it into the holder from where the mentioned price sheet is for
has nobody noticed ...where is the ntc price sheet????
if the seller wanted to be fair and not be fraudulant... he would mention the ntc price sheet not the pcgs price sheet....if there is no price sheet for ntc coins....
he should say " THERE IS NO PRICE SHEET FOR NTC COINS"
but he wont because then the "mark" will do a little more homework...and find out they were going to get taken and therefore loose the sale
i can not for the life of me understand that there was one person here saying....." i dont see anything wrong with it"
i was just involved with a case where as some little old lady got taken from some thief in ny for 500,000 grand....not real funny...and a little pressure from my friend elliot with the threat of jail time and the money was wired back and the 28,000 worth of coins returned
elliot is very busy chasing bigger thieves if you have been watching the news....but those ny thieves are on the radar screen now and if their name comes up again...they will get prosecuted.........me id of taken the resources and fried `em right now
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>that being said.....it is obviuosly fraudulant to say that this is a ntc ms 67 and elude to or mention anothers price sheet of values >>
The worst that this seller can be accused of is keyword spamming and a bit of puffery. As eBay crimes go, these are exceedingly minor, and in no way "fraudulant".
Oh, and you're a major loon, monsterman. You know that, don't you?
You don't know how to use capital letters, punctuation, or even sentence construction.
Maybe you need to go to your crib and quit drinking anything more powerful than milk!
the seller is not the problem....there will always be thieves...the problem is with those who find nothing wrong with it.....geez what so hard about that....heck with the seller
>>>>Ok "judge", Please tell the people that "are full of shi$$" what is illegal about this auction. >>>
here is good ole glenn......do you want glenn for a neighbor when thats how he thinks....he probably thinks is ok to....well never mind ...use your imagination
sorry to tell ya mark....i like leaving my doors unlocked as i trust my neighbors judgement
been to the bank lately and signed a note lately...pages and pages of legal cya all becasue of unethical people....the deed of trust should say
" i pay i stay "
but...the ethics question has to be covered ...and that is my point to some here
***************** ETHICS***********GET SOME!!!!!!!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<<<Hi,Thanks for the offer if it where in a PCGS holder.This is a very nice
coin for being an NTC and i believe it would cross grade depending on the graders mood that day.I really dont care if the coin sells or not,if it doesnt,it goes back in my safe for the my grandkids to enjoy.Thanks,Lew>>>
I think the grand kids will be the ones dealing with it don't you?
NoEbayAuctionsForNow
>>>Oh, and you're a major loon, monsterman. You know that, don't you?
i dont take that from truck drivers
ksteel..or what ever
>>>You don't know how to use capital letters, punctuation
i have a secretray for that....oh i know how to use them alright but id rather have her do it....that pic you have of ben franklin didnt teach you anything did it....back to school for you!!
now both of you...take one pill of ethics tonight before bedtime
so we all can live in a better place tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>flamino
>>>Oh, and you're a major loon, monsterman. You know that, don't you?
i dont take that from truck drivers
ksteel..or what ever
>>>You don't know how to use capital letters, punctuation
i have a secretray for that....oh i know how to use them alright but id rather have her do it....that pic you have of ben franklin didnt teach you anything did it....back to school for you!!
now both of you...take one pill of ethics tonight before bedtime
so we all can live in a better place tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
monsterman >>
Who changes your diapers, punk? With grammar and brains of your size, you are lucky to have a job at Mickey D's then yet a secretary!
They could make it much more difficult for sellers of non-PCGS coins to give the false impression that the PCGS price guide applies to other grading company's coins.
Edited to add: I just sent this to Mr. Hall:
A questionn/request for you for the the Q&A forum and/or otherwise:
Would you PLEASE change the language of the PCGS Price Guide so that it lets people know the prices are meant to be for PCGS coins only? You need only change or add a few words to accomplish this, and it could potentially save countless uninformed buyers from getting fleeced.
He's accurately quoting the PCGS price guide. That price guide is there for everybody, not just for PCGS.
Ethically, we wouldn't list such an auction. Yet you're telling us we "are full of shi$$" because we see nothing illegal about this auction.
You call yourself a judge and you can't answer a simple legal question.
What is illegal about this auction? What can we report to eBay to get this auction pulled?
<< <i>I believe this has been mentioned/discussed before, but why don't we spend just a little bit of our collective energy and immense intelligence and wit..... and beg PCGS to change just a few words in their price guide?
They could make it much more difficult for sellers of non-PCGS coins to give the false impression that the PCGS price guide applies to other grading company's coins. >>
That's a great idea Mark!
Does this mean we can't have fun with the funny guy?
NoEbayAuctionsForNow
In one corner we have Mr. Bingham aka monsterman who has assembled one of the best Morgan sets and commem sets of all time and whose posts on these boards are as colorful as his coins. Mr. Bingham thinks that using the PCGS price guide to pump coins graded by an other third party grader is unethical even if not illegal.
In the other corner we have some guys of no particular repute who don’t like the way he types.
Hmmm.
CG
<< <i>They could make it much more difficult for sellers of non-PCGS coins to give the false impression that the PCGS price guide applies to other grading company's coins. >>
WHY? Those prices don't even pertain to their own (in most cases)
<< <i>how would you like for your wife to surprise you for your birthday with this 12,000 coin >>
She's not that stupid, or that rich.
E PLVRIBVS VNVM
<< <i>
ksteelheader has the bests posts in this whole thread.
<< <i>Lets see what we’ve got going here.
In one corner we have Mr. Bingham aka monsterman who has assembled one of the best Morgan sets and commem sets of all time and whose posts on these boards are as colorful as his coins. Mr. Bingham thinks that using the PCGS price guide to pump coins graded by an other third party grader is unethical even if not illegal.
In the other corner we have some guys of no particular repute who don’t like the way he types.
Hmmm.
CG >>
And, pray tell, who are you?
So, we all have to believe like some guy with a lot of money who can buy coins and build a great registry set. Sorry to break your bubble, Homer, but most great registry sets are only great because of one reason.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
<< <i> he gives away the coins real grade by putting a starting price of $12,000. >>
What does that mean? What is the "real" grade. The only CDN I have at hand is several months old but it shows an 8tf bid at $7,400 in 66 and $45,000 in 67. So what would be the "real" grade that you would get for $12,000?
CG
Edit to fix a typo. Guess I don't type much better than monsterman.
<< <i>And, pray tell, who are you? >>
Someone smart enough to know who one these boards has valuable knowledge and wisdom to share and who does not. Now you can agree or not agree with Mr. Bingham, but what give you the right to insult him?
And if all it took was money to assemble a great set, why didn't he wind up with a set of overgraded, body baggable junk purchased raw or in lower tier tpg holders?
CG
<< <i>
<< <i>And, pray tell, who are you? >>
Someone smart enough to know who one these boards has valuable knowledge and wisdom to share and who does not. Now you can agree or not agree with Mr. Bingham, but what give you the right to insult him?
And if all it took was money to assemble a great set, why didn't he wind up with a set of overgraded, body baggable junk purchased raw or in lower tier tpg holders?
CG >>
Knowledge of coins has nothing to do with whether an ebay auction is legal or not!
And, your buddy was the one that started the insults. Or, didn't you read that part?
>>>Who changes your diapers, punk?>>>>
your ignorance is becoming of your status in life ...truck driver....as you are the same as the idiots who flip the bird out the car window only to be pulled out and thrashed at the next light...and believe me...you wont be the first nor the twentieth...oh ye ksteelheader
...i see you are as dumb as a box of rocks....as well as unethical....one more and your out!!!
opps and here it is
>>>.....job at Mickey D's then yet a secretary!
it has been said peole who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones....now truck driver....what that means is ....then yet a secretary!...does that sound like good grammar to you???
ok fry technician...drop fries now!!!
while im at it
thoy
>>>That price guide is there for everybody, not just for PCGS
that is a bunch of bs and evryone else knows it but you
btw
ks
>>>Does this mean we can't have fun with the funny guy?
i have all the fun you can handle...believe me you will have too much fun!!!! if your a masochist
KurtHorn
it is a relief to see a thinker with ethics.....and you are right on
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
You're a judge this should be easy for you.
What is illegal about this auction? What can we report to eBay to get this auction pulled?