I have been accused of shill bidding - what a welcome to the Darkside!

kieferscoins · February 9, 2005 12:57AM

A darksider sent me a pm this morning accusing me of shill bidding JamminJ's auctions.

I have recently started collecting world coins (focusing on German silver for the moment as I get my focus). I have bought and bid from other sellers also in the last few weeks, and have just started getting into the darkside arena. His auctions have wonderful pictures and starts @ $0.99 with no reserve. Yes I'm going to try to win some, and as a dealer I'm sure not going to let them go for cheap.... so I bid $9.99 on a bunch of them last week. I won 2 and plan on winnning more this weekend. They are awesome high grade coins and I love the two I got already. I've submited my first two batches of world coin to NGC myself and even did a post on it. I am just starting to love world coins and then this happened.

This accusation came as a shock to me, but the darksider said other members have noticed this "shill bidding" also. If you feel this way speak up! Including the guy who sent me the pm. Report me to ebay, whatever you feel is necessary but it is NOT TRUE. What a welcome to the darkside.....I'm in shock right now.

Cameron Kiefer

spinaker2000 · February 9, 2005 1:05AM

I don't consider trying to win a coin at a bargain price shill bidding. It is only shill bidding if you are asked by the seller to bid, and we know that hasn't happened here. My friends here are usually the first to bid on my auctions because they use our sig line links to see if we are running anything.

MSD61 · February 9, 2005 1:11AM

I don't this it's wrong either to try to win a coin at a good price Cammy. You have just as much right to bid on coins as anyone else. It's only worng if the seller and you agree to shill. Outside of that all is fair

XpipedreamR · February 9, 2005 1:16AM

You mean a darksider here?

I've have seen your bids on his German coins, because I was looking at them, too. I don't see how anyone could consider that shill bidding.

MacCrimmon · February 9, 2005 1:21AM

<< What a welcome to the darkside.....I'm in shock right now. >>

Yeah, right!!

Hey, a true Darksider would have sample slabs with 17th c. jetons for sale. Yep, Jammin has some nice stuff...maybe I'll run up a few bids myself. No need for nice stuff to go to 'cheap'.

BTW, where's your 'Future PCGS Cham-peeeeeen grader sigline? Give up, already?

wildjag · February 9, 2005 1:24AM

I like to give Cam a hard time just as much as everyone does, but I dont see this a shill bidding.

Cam announced that he is collecting German/world coinage. With few exceptions, everyone of the coins he bid $9.99 on is way over that amount. I do the same thing Cam does, and that is bid on auctions of Forum members. Why, because I feel I can trust them more. This is not shill bidding to me, shill bidding is constantly bidding the total up multiple times... not just bidding on an auction.

I want to add that I have bought many times from JamminJ and he has always treated me fairly with the fastest shipping of any seller on Ebay.

kieferscoins · February 9, 2005 1:25AM

Yes, a darksider here. He said others have noticed, and I want to let them post here if they feel I am shilling before I get a bad reputation for something I don't deserve.

I took down that part of my sig since it seemed too coccky. I am taking the test at Long Beach

Cameron Kiefer

MadMarty · February 9, 2005 1:26AM

Shill bid a few more of my auctions will you!!!

Actually Cameron has won a bunch of my auctions and is a great putz, oh I mean customer!!!

trozau · February 9, 2005 1:28AM

It wasn't me!

elverno · February 9, 2005 1:33AM

Dang, does that mean I'm a shill?

I always put in a low bid on anything I'm interested in. If the bidding heats up I decide if I want to put in another one. But I'm always willing to pay for anything I bid on. (And none of you are getting them back!)

I'm just cheap, not a shill...

MacCrimmon · February 9, 2005 1:41AM

BTW, that's not shilling, IMHO. I just put in some bids on some cool looking coins.......don't be stalking me, though!!

JamminJ · February 9, 2005 1:58AM

<< His auctions have wonderful pictures and starts @ $0.99 with no reserve. >>

Geez, Cameron, do you think I'm some kind of rip off guy? They all start at one cent.

Lots of good stuff this week, for example:

Shill bidders welcome!

-JamminJ

mrfred · February 9, 2005 2:10AM

I agree that it is not shill bidding.

We often hear the expression 'shill for' -- that's the full meaning of the word. Person A 'shills for' Person B. B is the seller. You gotta have two people in the game to have a shill going on, at all, so far as I understand the meaning of the word.

Fairlaneman · February 9, 2005 2:26AM

Cameron you are a real piece of work.

Yes folks I am the guy that called him a shill bidder. First off I mentioned no seller names period. I did not even respond, oh this was a PM by the way, when Cammy Boy told me who the seller was. Second I did not say that people on THIS FORUM had made reference to him as a shill bidder, again Cammy Boy is telling people who said this, not myself. Third and formost. People construe shill bidding differently. Myself when I see many bids posted to a sellers auctions one time with no intent to buy I consider it shill bidding.

One instance comes to mind and sealed my thoughts completely. Every auction had a bid from a certain bidder. If I remember correctly all of the bids were for a amount that would not win the auction but sure in hell raised the price. Whether the autioneer asked for the bids or not is not relevent. The cold fact is that the bidder was a shill even if it was done just out of friendship.

Like I said Cammy Boy, You are a Piece of Work. You knew exactly what this thread would receive even down to my response. To you a Private Message means Public Message.

Should I beg for forgiveness, I think not. Let people think what they want about this situation.

Ken

newsman · February 9, 2005 2:47AM

I don't think Cameron has anything to apologize for. I've been in on some of those auctions and I don't feel like he did anything improper. We all know how much those coins are worth on the open market. If Cam wants to place low bids on every coin JamminJ (or any other seller) offers in the hope of picking up a couple of bargains, that's cool. I have done that. We all have done that. I also think it's unrealistic to assume that some of the coins he bid on would sell for less if he didn't bid, because JamminJ's auctions attract savvy buyers, like us darksiders, for example.

Edited to add: And the bad news is (for Cam at least) Jenna has a boyfriend.

Fairlaneman · February 9, 2005 3:06AM

How do I link a PM to this thread ? I just read Cammy Boys original post to this thread and what he has said is very wrong. Now I will call him a Damn Lair. Its sad that a kid would do something like this.

Ken

XpipedreamR · February 9, 2005 3:25AM

<< Let people think what they want about this situation >>

AuldFartte · February 9, 2005 3:48AM

True shill bidding is when the seller and the "shill" are in cahoots for the purpose of running up someone else's (buyer's) bid amount to obtain the highest price for the seller.

Cameron is not the type of individual who would conduct business in this fashion, either as a seller or a shill.

Placing a low bid on several auctions in hopes of obtaining a nice item for a very low price is NOT shilling. Hell, guys, it's the American way, and sometimes you get lucky.

kieferscoins · February 9, 2005 3:48AM

<< Like I said Cammy Boy, You are a Piece of Work. You knew exactly what this thread would receive even down to my response. To you a Private Message means Public Message. >>

I did not name your name and kept it private. You said others have noticed this and I wanted to get the matter straight now before it gets out of hand.

I am not a kid either.

Cameron Kiefer

Fairlaneman · February 9, 2005 4:02AM

Cammy Boy why dont you link my PM to you and let the people see what a STRETCHER OF THE TRUTH you are. You have My permission to link the PM.

Bet this will not happen. Well maybe if Cammy Boy edits his first post to leave out any names. Thats his style.

Last post to this thread and I apologize for doing this, raking a Damn Lair across the coals, on this forum.

Ken

satootoko · February 9, 2005 4:12AM

When did this forum become an adjunct to Open Garbage, or the RCC?

Accusing someone of shilling on JamminJ's auctions is a major insult to JamminJ, one of the most upstanding, decent members of a forum known for its decent and upstanding members; and he

well deserves an apology from the accuser!

kieferscoins · February 9, 2005 4:13AM

This morning in regards to the "test" thread in the coin forum:

My PM defending my post

<< Yea ...after you EDIT the post. Check the post under your original one to see what Real Help is. Geez... Once a Forum Cop always a Forum Cop. >>

Ken,
The only thing I edited was after I went to the testing forum to cut and paste a direct link. thats all I did. you are way out of line with that statement.
Cameron

His reply:

"No Cameron

You are way out of line because you just jump on these things without checking anything. Just maybe if you would have made your statement directly toward the poster he would have caught your drift and I would have also. But no, you just hit those threads with your same old crap you have been doing for years.

And on your Shill Bid thread. Just remember what "Goes Around, Comes Around". Placing low ball bids to jack the price up constantly for one seller is shilling in my book. You and another guy are real good at this. Pretty darn obvious.

Ken"

My reply:

"You and another guy are real good at this. Pretty darn obvious."

You are wrong again. JamminJ?
I actually have started collecting world coins now and want to bid on those slabs -every single one! I haven't won too many but every single one I have in my posession in my collection. I've submitted 2 orders to NGC in the last 2 months with german and russian coins. I have been bidding and winning other world coins also. as you would say: "you just jump on these things without checking anything."

I can't believe you are accusing me of shill bidding. I'm just starting out in world coins. The stuff is started cheap so of course I am going to bid and hope to win. What a welcome to the world coin collecting community
Cameron

His reply:

"Hey It was not only me that noticed it. Remember the thread that another person started on the World Forum and then a lame excuse was made by the seller. I do !

Also you know darn well that you will win with 8 buck and 10 buck bids. Get Real !! Actually I do see where you won two auctions out and out. Thats pretty good out of how many bids ?

Really it does not matter any more because I will not bid on the sellers auctions again no matter how nice the coin may be.

Ken"

My reply:

"Remember the thread that another person started on the World Forum and then a lame excuse was made by the seller. I do !"

I don't remember. can you send me a link. You are wrong Ken. I am not shilling at all. He has never asked me to bid and I bid on my own and am going to win some more this weekend. Cameron

Fairlaneman · February 9, 2005 4:18AM

Broke my promise.

Well, Did I accuse any Seller ? or did a person have a Guilt Feeling.

Ken

kieferscoins · February 9, 2005 4:19AM

I had a bad feeling because I was accused of shilling. That is serious to me and my reputation.

I am not a "damn liar" I am not a shill and I am not a kid.

Cameron Kiefer

Darkhorse · February 9, 2005 4:20AM

When did this turn into the US coin forum?

syraq · February 9, 2005 4:32AM

I don't like this thread, but I'm going to state that IMHO there's not one chance in a million of shill bidding involved. Like others said, I too place low early bids on many many coins auctioned by forum members, that I really have no intention of winning. Sometimes to give a friendly bump, others because I'm just curious about the final price. I believe that both JamminJ and Cameron are above any suspicion and the sooner this little episode ends the better we'll all be.

rhound1977 · February 9, 2005 4:33AM

CoinHusker · February 9, 2005 4:47AM

<< When did this turn into the US coin forum? >>

cosmicdebris · February 9, 2005 4:49AM

I am yelling loudly and plugging my ears.

trozau · February 9, 2005 5:11AM

Okay guys, group hug!

theboz11 · February 9, 2005 5:14AM

Who left the door open ,,,I feel a breeze

danglen · February 9, 2005 5:22AM

OOOPS....for a moment I thought I was back in the US Forum!

This is the first time I have seen this kind of thread in our Forum since the infamous Crownman (who turned out to be a Conman) was booted by Carol. As for Cammy, I have known him personally for five years and have nothing but nice things to say about him (except that he yells at his girlfriend on the phone)

. He is definitely not the kind of guy who would shill bid, or even do anything close to shady. And if I got a PM from someone accusing me of shill-bidding, I would probably post it in the Forum for public consumption as well. In this business, we all live or die on our reputations, so if somebody has something to say to me, unless it's constructive in nature, I want to get it out in the open and let the chips fall where they may.

kieferscoins · February 9, 2005 5:29AM

<< And if I got a PM from someone accusing me of shill-bidding, I would probably post it in the Forum for public consumption as well. In this business, we all live or die on our reputations, so if somebody has something to say to me, unless it's constructive in nature, I want to get it out in the open and let the chips fall where they may. >>

Thats why I posted this thread. I took the comment "others have thought the same thing" to mean members of this forum and I wanted to get the matter straight right here and right now.

I am sorry about this thread, especially if it is the worst one in over a year.

BTW that girlfriend broke up with me over a year ago

Cameron Kiefer

danglen · February 9, 2005 6:40AM

<< BTW that girlfriend broke up with me over a year ago >>

No wonder she broke up with you! I wouldn't let you yell at me either

wybrit · February 9, 2005 7:27AM

I don't like this thread

PMs are private. Please keep them that way.

cacheman · February 9, 2005 8:18AM

<< When did this turn into the US coin forum? >>

I'd have to say that this place went to Hell in a handbasket several months ago and by the looks of this thread it continues to get worse...

MrEureka · February 9, 2005 8:20AM

<< His auctions have wonderful pictures of young girls and they start @ $0.99 with no reserve. >>

Cameron Kiefer

Cameron - What exactly do you expect to get for 99 cents?

kieferscoins · February 9, 2005 8:26AM

I bid $9.99. I said they started @ $0.99

<< PMs are private. Please keep them that way. >>

I did keep them private and did not even mention the persons name until HE came forward and challanged me to post them and gave his permission. Read the thread. I don't know why I need to defend myself anymore. I have done that already and the point should be clear.

Cameron Kiefer

WhiteLighnin · February 9, 2005 8:30AM

This is the most ridiculous thread i have ever read.......Cameron does not shill bid......

docday2003 · February 9, 2005 8:45AM

<< This is the most ridiculous thread i have ever read.......Cameron does not shill bid...... >>

This is definitely not shill bidding. No way. Lots of us bid early, and low...if we get it great, if not, no harm done. Sorry folks, Cameron is innocent.

XpipedreamR · February 9, 2005 8:48AM

wybrit · February 9, 2005 8:51AM

A darksider sent me a pm this morning

That's the first line in your first post. My comment stands. Keep the PMs private please. This forum is not for airing dirty laundry. Work it out over on the open forum.

Lynch · February 9, 2005 8:57AM

<< 

<< This is the most ridiculous thread i have ever read.......Cameron does not shill bid...... >>

This is definitely not shill bidding. No way. Lots of us bid early, and low...if we get it great, if not, no harm done. Sorry folks, Cameron is innocent. >>

I agree. The allegation is ludicrous.

Dabigkahuna · February 9, 2005 8:58AM

Aethelred · February 9, 2005 8:58AM

This thread is crap, it does not belong here and I hope the powers that be will see fit to move it to the US coin forum or the Open Forum.

lathmach · February 9, 2005 9:04AM

Ken, (Fairlaneman), You have struck an undeserved low blow here.
It's time to apologize.

Ray

JamminJ · February 9, 2005 10:49AM

Before this thread goes off and dies a well deserved death I figured I should reply. First, thanks to all who offered kind, supportive words.

If you look around e-bay you’ll notice there are not that many sellers dealing in lower value certified world coins and even fewer who run true auctions as regularly as I do. If you want to buy this kind of stuff on e-bay it would be hard to avoid seeing my auctions.

I get all sorts of bidders on my auctions: those who lie in wait and snipe, those who bid moderately on lots of items hoping to pick up a few bargains, some that win a bunch one week never to return, dealers that bid wholesale on large groups of coins and specialists interested in only a small niche of the world. In every batch of coins I sell there are a few that sell for surprisingly high prices and a few nice coins that simply roll over and die. If someone wants to grab all the coins in the latter category not only don’t I mind - I welcome it. In fact, if they go to a friend, forum or otherwise, all the better.

As for who bids on my auctions I have very little control over that except through the blocked bidders list. Nor do I care who bids as long as the bidder meets the two criteria of:
1. honoring their successful bids
2. not being such a pain that their bid isn’t worth it to me
Since Cameron meets both conditions his bids are welcome in any quantity, at any time and for any amounts he chooses.

If you see a coin you like I’m selling and feel the price is fair bid confidently in any manner you like. I allow the market to set the prices on all my coins, admittedly sometimes disappointingly. I offer a full no questions asked return policy. If you’re on the fence just ask a question through e-bay or shoot me a PM, you’ll get a complete & honest reply. However, if something in my auctions displeases you, such as bad photo, high price, other forum member’s bids or you just don’t like me, here’s some advice: don’t bid.

Finally, if any of you are that offended by my auctions PM me your e-bay ID and I’ll be happy to block you from bidding.

-JamminJ

BigAlan · February 9, 2005 11:11AM

If we define shill bidding as placing a bid in the hope of picking up a bargain then about 99.99% of e-Bayers would be guilty.

If I remember correctly all of the bids were for a amount that would not win the auction but sure in hell raised the price.

A bid that would not win the auction can't be a shill bid. The purpose of a shill bid is to raise the price above what the item would otherwise bring.

WhiteLighnin · February 9, 2005 11:29AM

I just in the past two days I bid on a fellow members auction...this is the way it went:

High bid-$29.99

I bid a max of $53.79

lasted 9 hrs.

High bid - $76.93

I bid (with 6 hrs ta go) $83.79

lasted 5 hrs.

I bid $98.79

lasted until 6 seconds left----YES 6 FRIGGIN SECONDS!!!! (snipin lowlife bast) errr nevermind, anyway....it sold for over $100....now...am i a shill bidder????

Hell no!!! I wanted the coin for a bargain, am i ticked because i didn't win it??? Heck yea!!!! But i should have bid more......

But i sure didn't bid the bids i did to shill, i was hoping to get it as cheap as i could......

ozzysdad · February 9, 2005 12:06PM

Geez, Cammie, The rumor i heard is you were attempting Shagging, not Shilling.............. Psssssssstttt.......... I would take this with a grain of salt. I would personally think whatever anybody bid's are on Ebay is there own friggin Bidzness, and
unless you want it announced what your bidding on. it's kind of like, Nunya......... Whoever accused you should spend
their time more wisely on their own eBay bidding. Now i know why some auctions prefer to keep their bidder's private.

Xcera · February 9, 2005 12:06PM

<< A darksider sent me a pm this morning

That's the first line in your first post. My comment stands. Keep the PMs private please. This forum is not for airing dirty laundry. Work it out over on the open forum. >>

Hey one of the coins i have is like the one in your pic

I have been accused of shill bidding - what a welcome to the Darkside!

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