1878 8 TF VAM 14-9. Agree or disagree?

RVDavis

I received my graded coins back from PCGS the other day. I looked over the coins; I was disappointed because I had this coin at MS 64 minimum; came in as MS 63.

I started VAMing and have determined that this coin is a 14-9. The primary diagnostic is the trippled eyelid; the reverse added feathers also match both the VAM book and Dr. Fey's handy 8 TF attribution guide (buy it if you are a VAM fan!) If you read Dr. Fey's latest newsletter as I did this morning, you find it is ultra rare. Cool find after a disappointing grade submission.

Opinions?

Rick

kieferscoins

The picture is very dark to see if it graded right.

PCGS isn't doing every VAM yet. David Hall said they are working on it for 2005.

Cameron Kiefer

Trooper

Nice coin...Nice Vam Looks like a 64 to me......

Tom

RVDavis

I am not crying to loudly about the grade; the real value is in the VAM. Dr. Fey reports an ANACS MS 63 DMPL recently sold for $7800 so I am not displeased at the grade outcome.

Rick

dwssws

nice coin. I agree with the eyelid tripled but reverse does not match picture in vam book for an a1n reverse (to me) but I am still trying to learn the different nuances of vamming. I am probably wrong. I also saw where one sold for big money and truly hope that is it.

Wolf359

Looks like an A1K reverse, common vam 14.1. Clashed. Sorry.

A1N is very unusual and rare. I don't think 14.9 has been found above EF or so.

RVDavis

Dr. Fey emailed me and said the same, 14.1. I defer to the experts. I do see extensive doubling on all of the reverse: motto, leaves, arrows and IN GOD WE TRUST. None of my references mention that as diangostic for the VAM 14.1, nor does my book mention the obverse features. Obverse I13 says 'Normal type 1 obverse with no apparent die breaks or doubling except slight doubling to top of P in PLURIBUS' yet I have doubling on the motto, stars and Liberty's profile. LIBERTY is doulbed, shifted left. Date is doubled. Yes, the obverse has faint clash marks. So I am not able to attribute this according to the documentation that I have.

RobJoyce1921dVAMguy

the small die gouge coming off the eagle's left leg (the one on the right as you look at it). It goes from the leg up and right and is indicative of the A1K reverse as Jack notes. Sorry.

Rob

MAD4MORGANS

I'm sorry, but I respectfully have to disagree with the conclusion as this coin being a VAM-14.1.

Although Im new at attributing VAMs and don't have an inkling of the experience of some of these other members, I do understand that it takes TWO die partners to make a die marriage.

The description RVDavis gives in his recent post, and the photos don't add up to the combined die marriage of VAM-14.1.

The doubled eyelid I18 obverse or tripled eyelid I19 obverse (I can't tell for sure) plus the other obverse doubling attributes aren't a die partner to the VAM 14.1 as described in the VAM encyclopedia. And the reverse has doubling in the eagle's right claw with an extra toe. Why is this not mentioned in the A1K reverse of the the 14.1?

It seems a lot of other details are being overlooked on this coin and I would need a lot more convincing of this before logging it in as a VAM 14.1.

Rampage

<< <i>I'm sorry, but I respectfully have to disagree with the conclusion as this coin being a VAM-14.1.

Although Im new at attributing VAMs and don't have an inkling of the experience of some of these other members, I do understand that it takes TWO die partners to make a die marriage.

The description RVDavis gives in his recent post, and the photos don't add up to the combined die marriage of VAM-14.1.

The doubled eyelid I18 obverse or tripled eyelid I19 obverse (I can't tell for sure) plus the other obverse doubling attributes aren't a die partner to the VAM 14.1 as described in the VAM encyclopedia. And the reverse has doubling in the eagle's right claw with an extra toe. Why is this not mentioned in the A1K reverse of the the 14.1?

It seems a lot of other details are being overlooked on this coin and I would need a lot more convincing of this before logging it in as a VAM 14.1. >>



It is VAM 14.1, but still a very nice looking coin. I have a 14.2 in MS63 and I just love it.

MAD4MORGANS

Please convince us on this conclusion. Why does the obverse not match the A1K reverse? This is not a present die marriage combination listed in the VAM encyclopedia table 7-1 4th edition.
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RVDavis' I19 obverse has the same characteristics as the II/I9 Obverse as the VAM-38. Concerning the VAM-38, the VAM encyclopedia states:

<< <i>Obverse I/II 9 (typo- should read II/I9 like title) -Doubled LIBERTY with shift to the left; largest shift of this kind known. All letters in E PLURIBUS UNUM and all left and right stars doubled. Doubled date with 1 doubled on both sides of shaft, first 8 doubled at top of outside and inside right of upper loop, 7 doubled on right, second 8 doubled on inside right of upper loop. >>

I have two VAM-38s with the same I9 obverse one graded and the other raw. They also have the tripled eye.

His I19 obverse die was probably one of those reused when they modified the 8tf design to the 7tf design (reimpressed). His 8TF reverse shows the doubled toes and other doubled features that show up on other 7/8tf VAMs. Reverse 8tf dies with doubled wreaths, toes, olive branches, ect. ect. are common on many of the 7/8tf reverses. They weren't caused during the restrike, they were already there on the original 8tf dies.

Here's my supposition/take of what went on:

Because there was too much work re-engraving feathers at the eagle's right side area, they polished out the 8tf dies used for the initial 8tf to 7tf modification (wrong number of tfs). This is evident on the way the 7/8tfs turned out with the eagles right side engraved feathers polished out (a problem area). The 8tf eagle's left side engraved feathers were probably polished out/re-engraved into the die and then covered show differently/covered over by the new 7tf design (like some of the original 8tf tailfeather tips in the 7/8tf).

Modifying the reverse like this until new 7tf B-reverse dies could be manufactured would have saved excessive man-hours needed to make the new B-reverse dies, eliminate excessive man-hours engraving feathers into the dies (the problem area) and help keep up/speed up production quotas.

Concerning the Obverse change during this 8 to7tf modification, The VAM encyclopedia pg 89 indicates

<< <i>..."There is evidence that the lower relief, second design obverse hub was impressed over the old, higher relief obverse dies. These dual hub obverses have doubled stars, LIBERTY, symbol letters, and other design details..." >>


What 7/8tf reverse has some of the same characteristics as the (A1K?) reverse of his coin? Take a look and see the possibilities without the ability to judge by using the "engraved" feathers as a guide.
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Researching this further leads me to the 7/8tf reverse of VAM-45 which is a B/an (the slight doubling in the olive branch below the tailfeathers is hard to see because it's dark in his image). The middle talon is doubled on the left foot and outside talon is doubled on the right foot (lump slightly seperated). The polishing of the eagle's abdomin also looks right by the photo in the Vam encyclopedia.
The VAM-45 goes back to a (B) "a n" reverse which would attribute backwards to a VAM-14-9 (I19-A1n) attribution for RVDavis' original 8tf coin before the modification.

Without seeing other details of this coin, I would hold to it being a VAM-14-9 until proved otherwise!

The only other combination I would concede to at this point, is the die marriage of the I19 obverse and the A1K reverse (I19-A1k) which is not identified as a die marriage in the VAM encyclopedia.

Nobody ever said VAMming is easy!!

RVDavis

Thanks for the very interesting analysis; I will take a better look at the coin and post what I see. I really do not see this coin as die par that are listed in the VAM book.

VamCollector

I suggest that you pick up Jeff Oxmans 8TF Attribution guide. The pictures are very well laid out and make attributions of the 8TFs much easier. The coin in question is a Vam 14.1...period. It is positively the A1k reverse and the obverse die markers match I13 obverse. I've owned just about every 8TF variety at one time or another. Out of the 40 or so varieties the only one I have not personally seen is the 14.17 so I do know a little about the series.

MAD4MORGANS

I'm glad you mentioned the 8tf attribution guide. I thought I had bought one and just now went looking for it. It turns out I don't have it yet but found his TOP 50 Peace Dollar Variety Guide I haven't even opened yet!!

I agree the reverse looks like the A1k in the photos and the VAM encyclopedia looking at the engraved feathers. If the A1K reverse was reimpressed it could have later morphed into the VAM-41 B/Ak or VAM41A B/Ak polished 7/8tf reverse. There are similarities with these reverses compared to RVDavis' photos (from what I can tell) as well.

Could you let me know what 8TF obverse markers you're refering to that attribute it as an I13 obverse? Thanks!

VamCollector

The obverse die markers I look for in the I13 obverse are the doubling in the eye which shows as a couple of spikes but also the very distinctive die chip slightly to the right and down from the eye. That to me is the key marker. It is visible in the lower right hand portion of the obverse picture provided. There is also a very small die chip next to the first star to the right of the "M" in UNUM. There is also die clashing near the bottom of where liberty's cap meets her neck. Again, no question that this coin is the 14.1

MAD4MORGANS

Thanks! RVDavis is on the road and perhaps he can check his coin for these markers when he gets back home.

Terry

RVDavis

Yes I am on the road, in late Wednesday night and I will take a look and let folks know what I see.