<< <i>...but I would like to know what people see that makes them question its authenticity. >>
The lack of plastic around a $10,000 coin for starters. With split bands, even in an ANACS net holder, this thing would be desirable to a lot of collectors.
The second thing is the seller's total lack of any type guarantee.
The third thing is the no return policy.
I wouldn't touch this thing. Maybe some Merc expert will come along and say it's authentic for sure, but I would take chances like that myself with no return policy.
The shape, size and position of the D look good. Still, I can only tell so much by a picture. There are also die struck counterfeits. The strike is unusually sharp with super full bands. If real, this would be an amazing 1916-D worth $20,000+ I guess it is possible for a real raw MS65 FB 1916-D to show up on ebay. Anything is possible
I just received an 1876 3 cent piece in VF from that seller yesterday. It was just as described. I was willing to gamble for a $40 coin, but I wouldn't do so on a $100+ coin.
<< <i>A no return policy is null and void for counterfiet coins >>
Really? How so? He even says he makes no guarantee of authenticity. Not giving you a hard time, I'm really wondering because I've never heard that before.
I went to heritage auction archives to look at the MS FB 1916-D dimes. None are struck as deeply as this coin. Now that I look at the mint mark as compared to the PCGS certified ones, the mint mark on this coin looks too flat. It looks like a circulated mint mark on an uncirculated coin!
The long raised line in the field my Liberty's eye also looks out of place. My vote is it is a die struck counterfeit.
"Really? How so? He even says he makes no guarantee of authenticity. Not giving you a hard time, I'm really wondering because I've never heard that before."
US law supersedes contract law, and passing counterfeit money is against US law.
"It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
Could it be legit, but stolen? No holder = no cert no = hard (not impossible) to trace. Honestly if I had any designs on bidding on this coin, I would email the seller and set up a phone conversation, or even a visit. It does seem awful fishy to me that such a coin wouldn't be slabbed.
'16 D dime is not a coin to be buying on ebay without its being in a TPG service holder. ANACS, ICG, NGC or PCGS, take your pick.Seller could send this piece to ANACS using their express service, have it authenticated and it would be back in his possession within two weeks.
This one could have been die struck with dies made by explosive impact method. Those rims look bad, however, from the planchet not being centered when the piece was struck. One is not going to be able to tell a thing about the "D" from the image of the reverse.
It doesn't bother me that seller doesn't guarantee authenticity. All sales are final. End of story.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I'd STRONGLY recommend that people NOT bid on such a coin (in effect on a sight-unseen basis), due to the fact that it's uncertified AND that the seller has said there is no return privilege or guaranty of authenticity - three huge red flags. It does APPEAR to be genuine, however.
BUT, if the listing's last picture of the obverse and reverse (see below) are accurate, the coin looks to have been polished and will receive a no-grade from PCGS.
I'm in favor of ebay coming up with some kind of policy that states certain date/mint coins MUST be in a TPG service holder before the coin can be sold on their venue.
1877 cent, 1909 SVDB cent, 1914 D cent, 1916 D dime, 1916 Quarter, to name a few.
Interesting that I checked a bit of feedback on this seller and found that one of his bidders was upset because he was claiming the coin he won was "sold out from under him." The coin? A 1928 Peace dollar.
...1928 Peace Dollar, to name another one.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I sent him an email asking why such a coin is not certfied by any of the major TPG's - makes me suspect it may be counterfeit ~~~~ I wonder what he replies........
I took a "flyer" bid on this coin. This coin is not genuine. I was willing to pay some $$ to buy a REAL GOOD fake, to have for educational purposes, etc., but at these prices I can go to college
Comments on below comments -- I think for the most part folks have been fixated on the obvious...the "D" on the reverse...but that's a good looking "D", and it has been deceiving a number of folks -- the "D" was not added after like some counterfeits...it was struck on/with the coin. Remember that there are MANY different ways to countefeit a coin -- and also some coins were counterfeited 50 years ago, these being the hardest counterfeits to detect as they seem more aged/mature/natural.
What gave it away to me immediately (and thus why I wanted to buy the coin -- I love good countefeits) is the strike. The strike angles in to the center of the coin and not out from the center. A close examination of real Merc's will reveal this. Some coins the strike is so weak at the outer edges of the coin that the lettering almost seems to have no relief and blend in to the edge. This coin is the opposite -- the outer portions of the near-rim area are hammered out while moving 30% in to the coin they get gradually weaker...this is a hhhhmmmmm...problem. Then, somehow miraculously, the coin flow shifts and it appears as though the coin sprouts a head on the obverse and fasces on the reverse...so hammered out that they look like they were glued on
The stike on this coin basically defies the law of physics and I suggest that this coin was struck in two stages -- thus producing this paradoxical flow pattern...first outside in and then miraculously inside out. The toning of this coin serves as a distraction, makes it look natural, and the distraction of the toning distracts the viewer from looking at the physical attributes of the coin -- metal flow. This helps (at least to me) to address some of the other observations in the thread.
And although the "D" looks mushy it looks to be the right form...but in a real coin of this caliber it shouldn't be this mushy -- in a real 16-D the metal flow is different then on this coin, and thus the "D" on genuine coins of this caliber are well defined. The mushy "D" is consistent with the lowering of the relief while moving from 0% - 30% of the coin...away from the edge.
My 2 cents
BTW -- we should ask to the seller to sell us the coin for $1k. Then, 5-10 of us each pitch in $100-$200 and we buy the coin. Using the library system we can each "check the coin out" for review and thus it would be a great learning experience for all of us -- especially Merc collectors
Yes, I'm sorry I did not conclude to draw a parallel to my thought regarding the rims. Rims like that CAN and DO occur on a genuine Merc, but for rims to look like that on a genuine Merc the relief of the lettering next to the rim would typically be shallower. However big rims like that with high relief on the lettering next to the rims is a physical paradox -- the metal flow on this piece from 0% - 30% of the outside of the coin is from the outside in and should not result in rims that look like that.
The high bidder obviously has tons of money as he/she doesn't seem too concerned about $$$ and probably won't even try to authenticate it. The same bidder paid me double PCGS listed prices on mid-range MS liberty halves about a month ago.
A comparison between the 16D in the auction and my 16S which is by far the worst struck of the 1916 dimes. BTW, I think the 16D is no good and has had a D added.
It appears to be die number 4. Although I would not bid on the second most counterfieted coin in the raw state. That coin needs to be graded to prove authenticity...
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
All coins that are slabed now were originally row. Even with graded coins I’ve heard stories of coins being broken out of the holders send do grading services for higher grade and coming back counterfeit, then being send to another service and coming back good. There is nothing in stone. And if you’re curios, find out how many rare coins are getting graded every year by grading companies.
Dimitry
that is the reply I got from this seller in reply to my query above...... besides the reply spelling is totally off too.
Real or not there are some pretty serious buyers after that coin. The bid is up to $8,567. That's a risk I would not be willing to take.
Edit: It seems unreasonable to me that a genuine coin that valuable would not be certified. I can only think of a couple of reasons why - the seller suspects it's a counterfeit, or it was returned from a grading service as questionable.
Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
If ever a Key coin was to be certified it would have to be the 1916-D Mercury. More fakes are out there than there are genuine examples. The likelihood of landing on a counterfeit/altered one is much greater when the coin is offered raw.
The auction was just ended because "the item offered is no longer available". I wonder if eBay made the seller pull the auction or if the price got too high and the seller sold the coin to the then high bidder?
I wouldn't think Ebay would make him pull it.....since:
1) They want to collect the sellers fee. 2) They have no proof the coin is counterfeit.
Most likely he took it off Ebay to avoid paying the fee....and sold it to someone who contacted him directly about purchasing the coin...i.e. one of the current bidders on the coin.
Wish we had a way to find out who ended up with it...and whether they ever get the coin into a holder or not??
This guy has pretty decent feedback but mostly for small dollar amounts.
Comments
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
-----
Proud Owner of
2 –DAMMIT BOY!!! ® Awards
I wouldn't be surprised if it was whizzed and polished, but I would like to know what people see that makes them question its authenticity.
<< <i>...but I would like to know what people see that makes them question its authenticity. >>
The lack of plastic around a $10,000 coin for starters. With split bands, even in an ANACS net holder, this thing would be desirable to a lot of collectors.
The second thing is the seller's total lack of any type guarantee.
The third thing is the no return policy.
I wouldn't touch this thing. Maybe some Merc expert will come along and say it's authentic for sure, but I would take chances like that myself with no return policy.
Here is an easier fake 1916-D
bad 1916-D
FrederickCoinClub
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>A no return policy is null and void for counterfiet coins >>
Really? How so? He even says he makes no guarantee of authenticity. Not giving you a hard time, I'm really wondering because I've never heard that before.
Ken
PCGS 66:
PCGS 63:
The long raised line in the field my Liberty's eye also looks out of place. My vote is it is a die struck counterfeit.
FrederickCoinClub
US law supersedes contract law, and passing counterfeit money is against US law.
Honestly if I had any designs on bidding on this coin, I would email the seller and set up a phone conversation, or even a visit. It does seem awful fishy to me that such a coin wouldn't be slabbed.
E PLVRIBVS VNVM
This one could have been die struck with dies made by explosive impact method. Those rims look bad, however, from the planchet not being centered when the piece was struck. One is not going to be able to tell a thing about the "D" from the image of the reverse.
It doesn't bother me that seller doesn't guarantee authenticity. All sales are final. End of story.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
BUT, if the listing's last picture of the obverse and reverse (see below) are accurate, the coin looks to have been polished and will receive a no-grade from PCGS.
1877 cent, 1909 SVDB cent, 1914 D cent, 1916 D dime, 1916 Quarter, to name a few.
Interesting that I checked a bit of feedback on this seller and found that one of his bidders was upset because he was claiming the coin he won was "sold out from under him." The coin? A 1928 Peace dollar.
...1928 Peace Dollar, to name another one.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Marc
I took a "flyer" bid on this coin. This coin is not genuine. I was willing to pay some $$ to buy a REAL GOOD fake, to have for educational purposes, etc., but at these prices I can go to college
Comments on below comments -- I think for the most part folks have been fixated on the obvious...the "D" on the reverse...but that's a good looking "D", and it has been deceiving a number of folks -- the "D" was not added after like some counterfeits...it was struck on/with the coin. Remember that there are MANY different ways to countefeit a coin -- and also some coins were counterfeited 50 years ago, these being the hardest counterfeits to detect as they seem more aged/mature/natural.
What gave it away to me immediately (and thus why I wanted to buy the coin -- I love good countefeits) is the strike. The strike angles in to the center of the coin and not out from the center. A close examination of real Merc's will reveal this. Some coins the strike is so weak at the outer edges of the coin that the lettering almost seems to have no relief and blend in to the edge. This coin is the opposite -- the outer portions of the near-rim area are hammered out while moving 30% in to the coin they get gradually weaker...this is a hhhhmmmmm...problem. Then, somehow miraculously, the coin flow shifts and it appears as though the coin sprouts a head on the obverse and fasces on the reverse...so hammered out that they look like they were glued on
The stike on this coin basically defies the law of physics and I suggest that this coin was struck in two stages -- thus producing this paradoxical flow pattern...first outside in and then miraculously inside out. The toning of this coin serves as a distraction, makes it look natural, and the distraction of the toning distracts the viewer from looking at the physical attributes of the coin -- metal flow. This helps (at least to me) to address some of the other observations in the thread.
And although the "D" looks mushy it looks to be the right form...but in a real coin of this caliber it shouldn't be this mushy -- in a real 16-D the metal flow is different then on this coin, and thus the "D" on genuine coins of this caliber are well defined. The mushy "D" is consistent with the lowering of the relief while moving from 0% - 30% of the coin...away from the edge.
My 2 cents
BTW -- we should ask to the seller to sell us the coin for $1k. Then, 5-10 of us each pitch in $100-$200 and we buy the coin. Using the library system we can each "check the coin out" for review and thus it would be a great learning experience for all of us -- especially Merc collectors
I'm in for $200
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
-Daniel
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
Yes, I'm sorry I did not conclude to draw a parallel to my thought regarding the rims. Rims like that CAN and DO occur on a genuine Merc, but for rims to look like that on a genuine Merc the relief of the lettering next to the rim would typically be shallower. However big rims like that with high relief on the lettering next to the rims is a physical paradox -- the metal flow on this piece from 0% - 30% of the outside of the coin is from the outside in and should not result in rims that look like that.
Ken
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
All coins that are slabed now were originally row. Even with graded coins I’ve heard stories of coins being broken out of the holders send do grading services for higher grade and coming back counterfeit, then being send to another service and coming back good. There is nothing in stone. And if you’re curios, find out how many rare coins are getting graded every year by grading companies.
Dimitry
that is the reply I got from this seller in reply to my query above......
Marc
great analysis - that said however this dime looks darn good and APPEARS genuine!
Edit: It seems unreasonable to me that a genuine coin that valuable would not be certified. I can only think of a couple of reasons why - the seller suspects it's a counterfeit, or it was returned from a grading service as questionable.
Seriously.
peacockcoins
1) They want to collect the sellers fee.
2) They have no proof the coin is counterfeit.
Most likely he took it off Ebay to avoid paying the fee....and sold it to someone who contacted him directly about purchasing the coin...i.e. one of the current bidders on the coin.
Wish we had a way to find out who ended up with it...and whether they ever get the coin into a holder or not??
would be dumb - I offred him 15K after we jointly submit the coin etc. I never got an answer after that stupid reply above
If so some collector unwittingly got scammed
Marc