<<So you are saying that in your dispute there was a clause such as paragraph 17 and it was voided?>>
I have no idea what paragraph 17 says. I have never dealt with heritage, but I have dealt with engineering contracts of all kinds for over 30 years. And I have learned that contract T&C's will not protect a seller from fraud, negligence, or incompetence. Reguardless of what the T&C's say a seller is still responsible to conduct himself in a professional and business like manner. If they don't do that the courts will not be very nice to them.
Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
I am surprised no one has mentioned the OTHER part of the transaction. Everyone on here keeps talking about the TOS. What about the terms with the consignor? Heritage did not meet their end of THAT contract and therefore, did not have the right to sell the coin/coins.
The other part of the argument is a 3-day right to cancel a contract. I am pretty sure it is 3 days. If you enter into a contract of any ty[e, I think you are entitled to cancel that contract within 3 days. I have had to use this on a lease for an apartment before. I have heard of it being used in other situations here.
Maybe our resident legal staff can give us some insight on this.
<< <i>I am surprised no one has mentioned the OTHER part of the transaction. Everyone on here keeps talking about the TOS. What about the terms with the consignor? Heritage did not meet their end of THAT contract and therefore, did not have the right to sell the coin/coins.
The other part of the argument is a 3-day right to cancel a contract. I am pretty sure it is 3 days. If you enter into a contract of any ty[e, I think you are entitled to cancel that contract within 3 days. I have had to use this on a lease for an apartment before. I have heard of it being used in other situations here.
Maybe our resident legal staff can give us some insight on this. >>
My limited understand on the topic concludes that the 3-day contract 'out' rule (Cooling off period) is state dependant and is generally not enforcable in point of sale transactions (Which an auction transaction is once the hammer hits and the buyer pays).
<< <i>The other part of the argument is a 3-day right to cancel a contract. >>
Doesn't apply in this circumstance. The 3-day cancellation right applies only to very specific types of sales, and coins purchased at auction is not one of those.
Seems to me that the correct action is for Heritage to eat their mistake. Provide the coin to the winning bidder at the winning bid plus vig, and remit the reserve amount to the seller.
<< From a legal standpoint, You won the auction. Paid for the coin. Heritage had no right to allow the consignor to pick up the
I think that there is specific language in the law that do not allow anyone to enter into a contract that would liberate them of thier rights, allows the willful commission of an illegal act (fraud), etc. You can write a contract for anything. The validity of the contract, even when entered in to by both parties would be subject to this test. Yes, Its Matlock juris prudence.. But these are all opinions by board members. As long as no one calls the offenders they will continue to bunker in to these types of tactics to place roadblocks to normal practice of common decency.
How would Heritage feel if the buyer had remorse and backed out. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Pony up the coin the man paid for.
No legal training required to recognize false advertising. And I would be you would not have to attend the first "Free consultation" at the Federal Trade Commision.
Dan
I am just throwing cheese to the rats chewing on the chains of my sanity!
First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
<< <i>The other part of the argument is a 3-day right to cancel a contract. >>
I believe the 3 day right to cancel or the 72 Hour clause is for persons who have entered into a legal contract under the influence of a legally prescribed narcotic or a alcohol binge, (i.e.) sobering up and finding your new mercedes in your driveway. Under most State and Federal Law's any person who signs anything under the influence of a narcotic cannot be held accountable under the terms of any such contract.
Doesn't apply in this circumstance. The 3-day cancellation right applies only to very specific types of sales, and coins purchased at auction is not one of those.
I have NEVER had a problem with Heritage (knock on wood). I am sorry to hear about others' problems. My only gripe would be that sometimes it seems that the coins who's photos are less than revealing are those coins that would probably draw lower (and/or fewer) bids if better photo's were given (I do not bid on ANY of their lots that have poor photos, One-sided photos or no photo's)...Is this by design
Been waiting for years to here Heritage say "sorry we messed up" That's all they had to say to me, and I would still be a loyal customer today. They don't bother and I no longer have the need to wait for their CS to catch up with what's real.
Heritage.. Contact me sometime if you really care to here how you lost this customer.
<< <i>How could the consignor pick up the lot? If it showed you met the reserve, and paid for the item, I wouldn't think the consignor could take it back. Something sounds awfully screwed up here. >>
This isn't the first time Heritage has allowed consignors to 'back out' of sales. >>
That never happened for me with Teletrade, and I got many lots from them in the past few months. Am I just lucky or that does not happen there.?
<< <i><<So you are saying that in your dispute there was a clause such as paragraph 17 and it was voided?>>
I have no idea what paragraph 17 says. I have never dealt with heritage, but I have dealt with engineering contracts of all kinds for over 30 years. And I have learned that contract T&C's will not protect a seller from fraud, negligence, or incompetence. Reguardless of what the T&C's say a seller is still responsible to conduct himself in a professional and business like manner. If they don't do that the courts will not be very nice to them. >>
Paragraph 17 states the following: "Auctioneer reserves the right to rescind the sale in the event of nonpayment, breach of a warranty, disputed ownership, auctioneer's clerical error or omission in exercising bids or reserves, or otherwise." (italics added)
To bid on an auction one must sign an agreement accepting these terms.
There was an "omission in exercising" a reserve. Heritage rescinded the sale. Game over.
Still waiting for a citation of case law that would void this clause of the contract.
Hmmmmm..........glad to hear all you guys will not be bidding in Heritage auctions!!! On more than one occasion I've actually had them send my lots BEFORE I had paid!!!!
Comments
I have no idea what paragraph 17 says. I have never dealt with heritage, but I have dealt with engineering contracts of all kinds for over 30 years. And I have learned that contract T&C's will not protect a seller from fraud, negligence, or incompetence. Reguardless of what the T&C's say a seller is still responsible to conduct himself in a professional and business like manner. If they don't do that the courts will not be very nice to them.
The other part of the argument is a 3-day right to cancel a contract. I am pretty sure it is 3 days. If you enter into a contract of any ty[e, I think you are entitled to cancel that contract within 3 days. I have had to use this on a lease for an apartment before. I have heard of it being used in other situations here.
Maybe our resident legal staff can give us some insight on this.
<< <i>I am surprised no one has mentioned the OTHER part of the transaction. Everyone on here keeps talking about the TOS. What about the terms with the consignor? Heritage did not meet their end of THAT contract and therefore, did not have the right to sell the coin/coins.
The other part of the argument is a 3-day right to cancel a contract. I am pretty sure it is 3 days. If you enter into a contract of any ty[e, I think you are entitled to cancel that contract within 3 days. I have had to use this on a lease for an apartment before. I have heard of it being used in other situations here.
Maybe our resident legal staff can give us some insight on this. >>
My limited understand on the topic concludes that the 3-day contract 'out' rule (Cooling off period) is state dependant and is generally not enforcable in point of sale transactions (Which an auction transaction is once the hammer hits and the buyer pays).
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
<< <i>The other part of the argument is a 3-day right to cancel a contract. >>
Doesn't apply in this circumstance. The 3-day cancellation right applies only to very specific types of sales, and coins purchased at auction is not one of those.
Russ, NCNE
I think that there is specific language in the law that do not allow anyone to enter into a contract that would liberate them of thier rights, allows the willful commission of an illegal act (fraud), etc. You can write a contract for anything. The validity of the contract, even when entered in to by both parties would be subject to this test. Yes, Its Matlock juris prudence.. But these are all opinions by board members. As long as no one calls the offenders they will continue to bunker in to these types of tactics to place roadblocks to normal practice of common decency.
How would Heritage feel if the buyer had remorse and backed out. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Pony up the coin the man paid for.
No legal training required to recognize false advertising. And I would be you would not have to attend the first "Free consultation" at the Federal Trade Commision.
Dan
First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
<< <i>
<< <i>The other part of the argument is a 3-day right to cancel a contract. >>
I believe the 3 day right to cancel or the 72 Hour clause is for persons who have entered into a legal contract under the influence of a legally prescribed narcotic or a
alcohol binge, (i.e.) sobering up and finding your new mercedes in your driveway. Under most State and Federal Law's any person who signs anything under the influence of a narcotic cannot be held accountable under the terms of any such contract.
Doesn't apply in this circumstance. The 3-day cancellation right applies only to very specific types of sales, and coins purchased at auction is not one of those.
Russ, NCNE >>
End of deal.
they have insurance for this.
If you felt you got buried in the coin let it be !
That's all they had to say to me, and I would still be a loyal customer today.
They don't bother and I no longer have the need to wait for their CS to catch up with what's real.
Heritage.. Contact me sometime if you really care to here how you lost this customer.
<< <i>
<< <i>How could the consignor pick up the lot? If it showed you met the reserve, and paid for the item, I wouldn't think the consignor could take it back. Something sounds awfully screwed up here. >>
This isn't the first time Heritage has allowed consignors to 'back out' of sales. >>
That never happened for me with Teletrade, and I got many lots from them in the past few months. Am I just lucky or that does not happen there.?
<< <i><<So you are saying that in your dispute there was a clause such as paragraph 17 and it was voided?>>
I have no idea what paragraph 17 says. I have never dealt with heritage, but I have dealt with engineering contracts of all kinds for over 30 years. And I have learned that contract T&C's will not protect a seller from fraud, negligence, or incompetence. Reguardless of what the T&C's say a seller is still responsible to conduct himself in a professional and business like manner. If they don't do that the courts will not be very nice to them. >>
Paragraph 17 states the following: "Auctioneer reserves the right to rescind the sale in the event of nonpayment, breach of a warranty, disputed ownership, auctioneer's clerical error or omission in exercising bids or reserves, or otherwise." (italics added)
To bid on an auction one must sign an agreement accepting these terms.
There was an "omission in exercising" a reserve. Heritage rescinded the sale. Game over.
Still waiting for a citation of case law that would void this clause of the contract.