I have questions about 1966 SMS Kennedy varieties and need answers from you Kennedy variety experts.
SanctionII
Posts: 12,104 ✭✭✭✭✭
I looked at some SMS sets today at a local shop. Found two 1966 sets with Kennedies that interest me. Both have cameo contrast on both sides of the coin beneath haze. Thus I looked a little closer.
Upon doing so I noticed that the motto "In God We Trust" on both coins are prominently doubled (I expect that the coins were struck consecutively off the same dies). The doubling is clearly not machine doubling. The doubling is not flat and shelflike (an indicator of machine doubling). Each letter looks full and rounded like you would see on a coin that does have doubling (I guess I should pull out the Cherrypicker's guide to refresh my memory on the different types of doubling). The letters are not completely separate (like the 1955 Doubled Die cent). Instead one set of letters sits partially on top of the other set of letters. However, the separation between the two sets of letters is wide enough so that a trough exists between the two sets of letters. Further the doubling seems more pronounced on those letters in the motto that are farther away from the rims.
With the above description in mind, do any of you Kennedy variety experts have any comments? Did I find a rare and valuable variety? Is the doubling a true doubled die or is it something else? If it is a true doubled die, what would cause the doubling to be only on the IGWT motto and not on the date or other lettering? Finally, are these two Kennedies something that justifies purchasing (the shop wants $13.00 each) the two sets? I am luke warm on the sets since the cameo on the Kennedies is not that strong (though a bath to remove the haze may cause me to change my opinion). However if the doubling is something that make the coins special, I would not want the cherries to fall out of my reach.
What do you think? Thanks, SanctionII.
Upon doing so I noticed that the motto "In God We Trust" on both coins are prominently doubled (I expect that the coins were struck consecutively off the same dies). The doubling is clearly not machine doubling. The doubling is not flat and shelflike (an indicator of machine doubling). Each letter looks full and rounded like you would see on a coin that does have doubling (I guess I should pull out the Cherrypicker's guide to refresh my memory on the different types of doubling). The letters are not completely separate (like the 1955 Doubled Die cent). Instead one set of letters sits partially on top of the other set of letters. However, the separation between the two sets of letters is wide enough so that a trough exists between the two sets of letters. Further the doubling seems more pronounced on those letters in the motto that are farther away from the rims.
With the above description in mind, do any of you Kennedy variety experts have any comments? Did I find a rare and valuable variety? Is the doubling a true doubled die or is it something else? If it is a true doubled die, what would cause the doubling to be only on the IGWT motto and not on the date or other lettering? Finally, are these two Kennedies something that justifies purchasing (the shop wants $13.00 each) the two sets? I am luke warm on the sets since the cameo on the Kennedies is not that strong (though a bath to remove the haze may cause me to change my opinion). However if the doubling is something that make the coins special, I would not want the cherries to fall out of my reach.
What do you think? Thanks, SanctionII.
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Comments
<< <i>Did I find a rare and valuable variety? >>
There are none that are rare and valuable, just some that are worth a bit more than the garden variety. Check the chin, lips and nose for strong doubling. That would be the one that has some value in high grade, but not huge. The other well known variety is the No FG. With both the DDO and the No FG you need MS66 or better to see much in the way of return.
If they are full cameos and grading MS65 or better, it's certainly worth the purchase price of $13. If the plan is to submit them, you need at least MS66CAM.
Russ, NCNE
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Thanks all who replied to my original post in this thread. I read your replies very thoroughly. I appreciate the link RGL put up to a 2003 thread on the same topic. I also read that thread very thoroughly and looked at the picture Russ posted in that thread.
Today I went back to the shop, looked at the two 1966 SMS sets again and bought them. Then I gave the two Kennedies a bath to remove the haze. As I suspected, both coins are cameo on both sides with nice even frost and decent mirrors. This alone makes me a satisfied customer. But wait........, there is more.
Both coins have very prominent doubling on Kennedy's bust at the eye brow, nose, lips, chin, under the chin, neck, initials on the truncation of the bust and the ear. Further, every letter in the motto "In God We Trust" is doubled. The I in "In" and the second T in "Trust" have the least amount of doubling. "God", "We" & Tru" in the motto show very prominent doubling. The second 6 in "1966" shows prominent doubling. The 9 and the first 6 in "1966" also show some doubling. The "T" and the "Y" in Liberty also show some doubling. The doubling is rounded and not flat. The serifs are separate, crisp and pointed. The doubling of the letters and date in general is such that the bottom lettering is surmounted by the top lettering with the top lettering displaced in the direction of 2:00 o'clock on a clock dial (northeast on a compass). The doubling of the bust looks just like that pictured in the photo posted by Russ in the 2003 thread on the subject linked by RGL.
On the reverse the initials FG are present and there is no doubling.
If I had to give grades to the coins, I would venture to say MS64 CAM to MS56 CAM (on one coin there is a very thin scratch on the bust of Lincoln just above the truncation which is noticeable only if you look thorugh a 10x loupe; and on the other coin there are five small marks on the bust just above the truncation of the bust, three of which are barely noticeable with the eye and all five of which are noticeable if you look through a 10x loupe). The marks and the scratch are minimized by the frosted devices. No hairlines are on the obverse. The reverse is very clean on both coins with no marks or hairlines.
With the above description in mind, does anyone care to venture an opinion of what variety the coins are, their rarity and their value? Thanks again for your input.
with CONECA. The book was written '98 and is quite comprehensive in its listings.
Some of the '66 DDO's are quite dramatic and interesting. The best tend to be scarce or
rare but some aren't overly tough.
Do they look like this?
This die gouge south is what identifies mine as a DMR-21.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Do you mean DDO-19, or DMR-19?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
As far as the picture of the die gouge on your coin, I assume that you are referring to the small line that extends down (as I look at your picture) at close to a 90 degree angle from the top of the L in Liberty. My two coins also have the same small line in the same position.
At the next regional show I go to I will have to pick up the Wiles book on Kennedies.
Thanks to all who replied to my thread.
They're fun finds. If yours have a die gouge south from the L in Liberty, Dr.Wiles mentions one other die pair that might be a likely suspect. DMR-3 has a similar die gouge but slightly different doubling. You'll enjoy the book. Perhaps Koynekwest will revisit the thread, as I believe my coin is the same DDO as the Raines coin. I visited the Coneca web site to confirm. I'll submit it for attribution one of these days. Good luck in the search. You'll find many dates and MM that are strongly doubled. If you ever start really looking, it'll keep you quite busy.
While you're looking, don't forget to check for these.......
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
In looking for cameos and in looking at circulation strike Kennedies, I have found many SMS and circulation strike (silver and clad) examples that have doubling. I will have to pick up Wiles' book and educate myself on the topic.
<< <i>Don, thanks for the additional pictures.
In looking for cameos and in looking at circulation strike Kennedies, I have found many SMS and circulation strike (silver and clad) examples that have doubling. I will have to pick up Wiles' book and educate myself on the topic. >>
I especially like the '74-D. While it's hardly the most valuable it is a coin which is tough in really nice condition like this one is.
I concur with your attribution-it looks like Die #19. (I don't use the "DMR" designations-they just confuse the issue IMO.) The very strong doubling on "WE TRUST" is diagnostic as well as the die gouge. A nice find on your part-I've been looking for years for this particular variety with no luck. Die #13 is nearly as nice and much more findable. I sent JT Stanton some examples of the different dies found for the 1966 date-hopefully, in the new Vol 2 of the CPG (if it ever appears) these will be broken down into a few of the better varieties instead of all just lumped under the "DDO" classification. The commoness of the PROFILE doubling, with or without additional doubling on the date, motto, etc is one thing that leads me to believe that it came from a doubled working hub.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor