1864 half dime: business strike- updated

rhedden

I recently purchased a really nice collection of half dimes in an old Wayte Raymond album. Many proofs and several Unc.'s were included, and most were beautifully toned after 45 years+ in the album. The 1864 is pictured below (sorry, my digital camera has trouble with half dimes, so the images are not going to get any better). It is either a proof with shallow mirrors, or a prooflike Unc. The coin has prominent clash marks in the obverse field to the right of Liberty, which is what made me doubt that it's a proof. Does anyone know for certain how to tell the difference? It's going to PCGS either way.




Edited to add some close-up pictures requested by JadeRareCoin (disclaimer: big, big pictures!!!!)

1864 date
1864 date - closer view
1864 obverse legend
"D" in UNITED
Ribbon bow reverse

coinguy1

Based upon the images (including the clashed dies, which are hardly ever seen on Proof coins), I'd say that it's a business strike and not a Proof. It also looks like a nice one.

Edited to add: Business strike 1864's are often encountered with PL surfaces.

elwood

It's my undestanding if they have clash marks they can't be proofs???

rhedden

I hope you guys are right because the 1864 business strike is scarcer than the 1864 proof. I am expecting PCGS MS-65 or PR-65 on this one.

JadeRareCoin

Actually proof Seated Half Dimes can have clashmarks. I would need more images to say definitively, but it is possible that you have a proof versus a business strike. Obviously the business strike is more desirable, but there's not a huge spread in value, especially in the high grade that you coin is.

My gut reaction is that you have a proof. I would want close-up images of the the word "UNITED", specifically the "D", which is always closed at top, per Breen. I would also want a close-up of the date and the ribbons on the reverse wreath. The dentilation and overall strike, combined with the semi-prooflike surfaces would make me lean towards a proof. There are 4 proof varieties known for this year. You coin could be the rarest of the 4 varieties, but it would not add much value.

Regarding the coin itself...........WOW! What a monster. I am guessing that it will grade PR-66, unless I cannot see some flaws. Congratulations on a stunning acquisition, regardless of whether it is a proof or a business strike.

KurtHorn

As is usual with our 50k file size limit it's difficult. But based on needle sharp denticles and sharpness of the strike, my gut reaction would be Proof. As for the grade remember, the smaller the coin the harsher the grading. What's up with the M in Dime? there are a couple contact marks on the reverse (or so it appears in the pic), the thing with the M... Also, even though die clashes are not supposed to affect the grade, it has been my experience that PCGS sometimes looks on it from an eye appeal issue and may grade it down for that reason.

All of this said... Terrific Coin. and YOU SUCK!!!

elwood

I'll wager it's a B.S. Look at the lack of strike on the upper left end of the wreath.
edited: this coin doesn't look PL to me....looks frosty.

tjkillian

Regardless of whether is it a proof or business strike, that is one fine looking half dime, congratulations. Let us know how it grades out. I can easily see it in a MS-65 holder.

Tom

rhedden

If I submit this to PCGS as a business strike, and it turns out to be a proof, will that be a problem? I'm assuming they'd just holder it as a proof and return it to me.

lathmach

Low date with the pendant above the knob of the 6, struck from clashed dies.
That's the description for one of the proof varieties.
Could be a proof.

Ray

mgoodm3

I've seen proof half-dimes with a weak strike on the wreath at 10 o'clock before.

Julian

I am virtually certain that this coin was made to circulate.

I think that encapsulating this Gem is a waste of money.

If you wished to sell it, there are 100 buyers on this board alone, let alone any intelligent coin dealer at any show.

Sounds like a great collection. Congratulations on its acquisition.

JadeRareCoin

<< <i>If I submit this to PCGS as a business strike, and it turns out to be a proof, will that be a problem? I'm assuming they'd just holder it as a proof and return it to me. >>



Just do not indicate what you think the coin is. Rather, just list the date and denomination and put a "?" in the variety or PCGS coin number space. They will take care of the rest. It is a real beauty. Nice, fresh and, as I like to say, crusty.

Purple73

Man, that is one awesome half-dime......I bet I clicked this thread 5-6 times just to look at it!


Got a question though.....In my Complete Guide to LSHD (Al Blythe) he mentions a Restrike in 3 diff metals. JUDD 378,379 and 380. He also says with high date that slants up to the right. Anyone have an example of that? Book also says that there is 470 Proofs.....Holy Smoke. This baby is way rare!

NumisOxide

Wow, that is a really nice looking half dime. The rim tone makes it even better. I can't wait for you to post the grade of it when you get it back from PCGS. Good luck.

coinguy1

<< <i>If I submit this to PCGS as a business strike, and it turns out to be a proof, will that be a problem? I'm assuming they'd just holder it as a proof and return it to me. >>

Regardless of what you list it as on the submission invoice, if they disagree, I assure you, they will feel perfectly free to designate it as they see fit.

I would list it as a business strike, and if they think it's a Proof, they can encapsulate it as such.

rhedden

TTT- microscope photos added for JadeRareCoin (see original thread at top).

SethChandler

No question, biz strike. MS66. Awesome coin. Tell us about the other coins in the set.

rhedden

Seth, I will gradually post the other coins as I take photos.

I examined the 1864 under the microscope today and was pleased to note that there are no visible hairlines or contact marks on either side. All marks seen in the photo, including those near "half dime" on the reverse, are clash marks. If PCGS doesn't downgrade it for the clash marks, it could get an incredibly high grade. I will be compensating the previous owner nicely if that happens.

Purple73

hmmm The D is closed.....very cool

mrdq

i can't even read this thread anymore.. i'm sick with jealousy


Image that whole collection for us and let me wallow in my own depression

tmot99

Not sure if it's a proof or business strike. Either way, very sweet coin.

Are you going to put any of the set up for sale on the BST?

flyingcougar13

Another thing to keep in mind is that often the proof dies were not retired after the proof run. Many early circulation strikes with these dies exhibit very nice proof like qualities. GREAT looking coin and find!

cohodk

Here are pics of my 1864 1/2 dime. Not my best pics but maybe you can see come similiar diagnostics. PCGS PR66 CAM
12

rhedden

My coin has similar surfaces compared to cohodk's PR 66 CAM, but it doesn't appear to be the same die variety. The clash marks and the apparent recutting around the date on my coin make me think that mine is a business strike. In addition, I found the following NGC MS-65 coin on an auction site, and it has clash marks just like mine, plus prooflike surfaces. I concluded that my coin is probably a business strike, which is a good thing as far as value is concerned.