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Painted Cameos
coolkarma
Posts: 512 ✭✭
I had intended to start this thread after PCGS had confirmed my findings, but perhaps now is the time. I've returned three coins to PCGS that I believe have the frost "painted" on them: a 1953 PR65DCam lincoln, a 1967 PR65DCam roosevelt, and a 1967 PR66DCam washington.
I believe the "doctor" started with a cameo or near- cameo coin with deep mirrors. They then painted the devices with a translucent paint to enhance the apparent frost. And then sold or submitted the coins to PCGS. Over time, the paint takes on a very slight bluish coloration. This may make the frost seem somewhat whiter than white. At this point you can begin to see where the painter was "sloppy" and got some paint on the fields. The device edges appear a bit fuzzy.
If you take a digital image of the coin under high illumination, the coin will look odd - the painted frost may seem to float on top of the devices, eerie (I suspect the bright light partially goes through the translucent paint, reflects off the devices, and then a little light reflects off the back of the paint - a pure guess). Finally, if you look at the coin straight on, it is very hard to see the paint. Perhaps the devices look a little too white (the blue tinge), but of course, that's good. However, if you tilt the coin nearly 90 degrees so you are looking almost parallel to the surface of the coin, then you can see the paint, again it somewhat separates from the device. Using strong light is important to detecting the problem - under normal lighting levels the coins look great! Too great.
I fully expect PCGS will "make me whole" on the coins although I doubt I will be able to replace them. I should note that the two 1967's were graded twice by PCGS - the previous owner tried for upgrades (one successful, one not). PCGS had a good look at the coins. Finally, as some of you may recall, I also returned some painted coins to PCGS about a year ago (and PCGS did honor their warranty). Those coins and these coins were all graded by PCGS, and purchased by me, between early October 2001 and early March 2002. If you purchased some cameos in that time frame, you might want to take a close look - I have.
I hope this information proves helpful to some of you. It certainly makes me look much more closely at cameos before I purchase them. And makes me appreciate the "real" ones I have, and the PCGS guarantee.
I believe the "doctor" started with a cameo or near- cameo coin with deep mirrors. They then painted the devices with a translucent paint to enhance the apparent frost. And then sold or submitted the coins to PCGS. Over time, the paint takes on a very slight bluish coloration. This may make the frost seem somewhat whiter than white. At this point you can begin to see where the painter was "sloppy" and got some paint on the fields. The device edges appear a bit fuzzy.
If you take a digital image of the coin under high illumination, the coin will look odd - the painted frost may seem to float on top of the devices, eerie (I suspect the bright light partially goes through the translucent paint, reflects off the devices, and then a little light reflects off the back of the paint - a pure guess). Finally, if you look at the coin straight on, it is very hard to see the paint. Perhaps the devices look a little too white (the blue tinge), but of course, that's good. However, if you tilt the coin nearly 90 degrees so you are looking almost parallel to the surface of the coin, then you can see the paint, again it somewhat separates from the device. Using strong light is important to detecting the problem - under normal lighting levels the coins look great! Too great.
I fully expect PCGS will "make me whole" on the coins although I doubt I will be able to replace them. I should note that the two 1967's were graded twice by PCGS - the previous owner tried for upgrades (one successful, one not). PCGS had a good look at the coins. Finally, as some of you may recall, I also returned some painted coins to PCGS about a year ago (and PCGS did honor their warranty). Those coins and these coins were all graded by PCGS, and purchased by me, between early October 2001 and early March 2002. If you purchased some cameos in that time frame, you might want to take a close look - I have.
I hope this information proves helpful to some of you. It certainly makes me look much more closely at cameos before I purchase them. And makes me appreciate the "real" ones I have, and the PCGS guarantee.
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Yes, there are at least two other board members who have returned multiple coins under the exact same circumstances and time frames.
Be careful out there.
Check my ebay BIN or Make Offers!!
I believe PCGS is very PO'd about it, and knows where they are coming from.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>Over time, the paint takes on a very slight bluish coloration. This may make the frost seem somewhat whiter than white. At this point you can begin to see where the painter was "sloppy" and got some paint on the fields. The device edges appear a bit fuzzy. >>
Russ, NCNE
I encountered the problem on several Lincoln cents.PCGS is very aware of the problem.It seems these coins were done in 2001 and 2002.PCGS has fully refunded my money I spent to buy the coins and is strongly persuing the doctors.The culprits and their associates are known to PCGS.The biggest problem is the coins looked good at first and then changed after they got graded.
Stewart
Unfortunately it is locked away in a safe deposit box 5,000 miles away.
If someone knows who the culprits are I will compare that to my source for this coin....please PM me.
<< <i>I encountered the problem on several Lincoln cents.PCGS is very aware of the problem.It seems these coins were done in 2001 and 2002.PCGS has fully refunded my money I spent to buy the coins and is strongly persuing the doctors.The culprits and their associates are known to PCGS.The biggest problem is the coins looked good at first and then changed after they got graded.
Stewart >>
I think it would be pretty obvious who the culprit(s) were to PCGS if a ton of deep cameo coins (over time) came in to be graded, all from the same person or persons, which then subsequently, years later, came back proving the coins had been altered in the same manner. You'd think that PCGS knows exactly who initially submitted a coin for grading utilizing their own numbering system and the person the coin was shipped to.
It's also very sad that someone would do such a thing. I pity the fool(s) when they get the bill... and jail sentence.
Where was Russ in 2001 and 2002? Just kidding Russ... there's love man! Keep finding those Jeffs!
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
You'd think that PCGS knows exactly who initially submitted a coin for grading utilizing their own numbering system and the person the coin was shipped to
Yes, they know.
In my case two of the coins were re-submitted (or perhaps submitted for Presidential Review, I don't recall which) before I purchased them. If you were the doctor and knew the coins had been played with, would you take the chance of giving PCGS a second look? Not me.
I don't know but I think the odds are the submitters did not know the coins had been painted. PCGS couldn't tell by examining them and I don't think the submitters could either. JMHO
MS Buffalo
MS 1951
Needless to say all that took a lot of time. I wrote the original seller and asked if he would take the coin back. I was OK with selling it back at half the price I bought it for. (I don't play those games any more). The kicker to this story is the original seller dipped it and sent it to PCGS and it in now in a cameo holder.
How would PCGS be able to prove who the actual doctor was?
How could anyone ever be prosecuted for doing it?
and of course... who teaches coin painting 101?
But really, how do the coin gurus of the forum think this will or will not affect the market? I mean, if:
1. PCGS guarantees the grade, and
2. puts their money where their grade is, and
3. the buyer figures out the problem and sends it back to PCGS, who
4. pays the buyer for the coin, then
5. who looses?
Answer... we all do... with higher fees!
Again, I think it's a sad world we live in.
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
Has anyone who has seen these coins come up with some hints of what to look for??
thanks, cheers, alan mendelson
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
<< <i>Has anyone who has seen these coins come up with some hints of what to look for?? >>
Look at the images I posted.
Russ, NCNE
I also suspect that there have been many put through NGC as well, but have not shown up yet because of the way that NGC seals their slabs.
I guess fakes will always be a problem - in every coin series'. One of the reasons I wrote "Cameo And Brilliant Proof Coiange Of The 1950 To 1970 Era", and had pictures of most of the most prominent cameo die varieties from that era, was to help collectors make a determination if a suspicious looking coin came into their hands.
Most of the most prominent cameo dies from that era have unique frost characteristics. If a rare date from that era surfaces in DCAM that does not fit one of those cameo patterns, while it may be geniune and a cameo die that was not discovered at the time the book was published, the prospective owner should take a closer look at the coin and check it out very carefully!
You obviously have a very good eye if you spotted something that might have gotten past the graders!
Rick Tomaska
Once one knows what to look for fake cameos are fairly easy to spot. They are among the toughest types of fakery to get past knowledgeable collectors and dealers in this coinage.
As far as fakes on the market, I am far more concerned with a lot of artificially toned coins that people are paying huge premiums for.
Happy collecting!
PCGS is VERY tough on this stuff! Whoever was involved will be found by them, and dealt with appropriately.
Rick T
Rick, thanks for posting. Nice to have "the" cameo guy giving input.
Does anybody have any thoughts about this coin?
<< <i>Once one knows what to look for fake cameos are fairly easy to spot. They are among the toughest types of fakery to get past knowledgeable collectors and dealers in this coinage.
As far as fakes on the market, I am far more concerned with a lot of artificially toned coins that people are paying huge premiums for. >>
Rick,
So why then has PCGS supposedly slabbed some of these fake cameo coins? BTW, I also agree with you about artificially toned coins. Paying 10X money for a color coin isnt in my budget.
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
Steve,
I don't have the answer to that question, as I wasn't in the room when the coins were graded. That would be best addressed to PCGS. Would love to see one of the coins in hand.
Rick
Russ, NCNE
BTW... DMWJR... I do have some thoughts on your 38 proof... SEND IT TO ME!
Rick... You thought about doing any updates to your book yet? I own a copy of "Cameo And Brilliant Proof Coinage Of The 1950 To 1970 Era" and have enjoyed it. I've used it many times to show uninformed people what a cameo should look like when they bring their coins to me.
Russ... Thanks for the pictures of the 64 proof.
One final thought I had the other day... what's the similarity/difference between the "cameo maker" and the "coin restorer"? Aren't they both in it for the money? I'm not trying to hijack this thread with this statement... just something to think about.
Happy Hunting!
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
Steve, I don't own it. You can buy it right here if you are a gambler: LINK!
<< <i>what's the similarity/difference between the "cameo maker" and the "coin restorer"? >>
There is a huge difference. The first tries to make the coin in to something it never was. The second tries to return the coin to it's original state.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>You can buy it right here if you are a gambler: LINK! >>
<< <i>It is true that PCI standards for numeric grade, cameo designation, and deep cameo designation are not quite as strict as those of the 2 major services. >>
Not quite as strict? They aren't even in the ballpark. They don't even have a ticket to the ballpark. Hell, there aren't even any ballparks near them. Buying that coin wouldn't be gambling. Gambling implies a chance of winning. Buying that coin would just be stupidity.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>what's the similarity/difference between the "cameo maker" and the "coin restorer"? >>
There is a huge difference. The first tries to make the coin in to something it never was. The second tries to return the coin to it's original state.
Russ, NCNE >>
Thanks Russ... BTW... what does NCNE stand for?
DMWJR... I never said I would part with money for it... just that you could send it to me.
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
And, it's in a PCGS holder.
Auction link.
Shame on Teletrade for running with it.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE