SP Legendary Cuts Roger Maris Cut Auto is "Likely Not Genuine" according to PSA/DNA!!!!
Raymond
Posts: 153
I had my doubts about the authenticity of This Roger Maris Autograph.
The usual suspects at the Beckett MB debated if this was an early career auto, or a secretarial auto. Well, it bugged me enough that I set up this test.
I cropped the card so only the auto is visible and set up a test auction
Then I got this Quick Opinion
Likely Not genuine!
True, Quick Opinion is not a guarantee, it's an opinion. Also, all authentification of autographs are opinions (and you may get different opinions, and opinions may change). But this one seems fairly obvious and I feel that UD is cutting corners. This is the second cut that looks like a glaring fake from this set that we have spoted on this board. This is NOT acceptble for such a high end product.
I will e-mail this thread to UD, Beckett, and PSA/DNA to see what (if any) responces I get.
I feel bad for the buyer of that card.
Opinions please...
The usual suspects at the Beckett MB debated if this was an early career auto, or a secretarial auto. Well, it bugged me enough that I set up this test.
I cropped the card so only the auto is visible and set up a test auction
Then I got this Quick Opinion
Likely Not genuine!
True, Quick Opinion is not a guarantee, it's an opinion. Also, all authentification of autographs are opinions (and you may get different opinions, and opinions may change). But this one seems fairly obvious and I feel that UD is cutting corners. This is the second cut that looks like a glaring fake from this set that we have spoted on this board. This is NOT acceptble for such a high end product.
I will e-mail this thread to UD, Beckett, and PSA/DNA to see what (if any) responces I get.
I feel bad for the buyer of that card.
Opinions please...
0
Comments
but they can tell if Maris signed or didn't sign a piece of paper 40 years ago???
PLMK
JS
buy it and sue Upper Deck.
joestalin - most secretarial signatures are not attempts to exactly duplicate the signature, as a good forger might. They simply are to match for a casual glance. There will be some differences that will readily show.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
JS
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
And there are mounting stories to substantiate that view.
Loves me some shiny!
Here is an exemplar from PSA/DNA file:
And the bottom one is the cut sig.
Not one of the exemplars on file has a R shaped that way - not even close.
your friend
Mike
and what isn't unless you were standing there when the guy signed it? Im still waiting for someone to tell me why PSA is
dead on everytime?
I dont' need to tell anyone that certified cut autos are a BIG business. It is impossible to find one on ebay for less than 100 dollars
and the big names going for thousands. Is PSA thinks some or all of these are fake then this is big news. So they are saying that
UD is putting out fake autos???? Does Mr McWilliam know about this?
Lets get the facts out please.
Thanks
PSA
Those are good questions and I, personally, don't have an answer. The only cuts that I would trust as exemplars for the file would be ones that were from a notarized contract or a series of checks which definitely look like his sig. Otherwise, I think it is a "judgement" call. And anyone can make mistakes all day long. Heck, I sign my name different everytime. I saw a segment where an expert was "set up" by the station and the auto he authenticated was signed by a television staff member!
This is a tough area to feel comfortable unless you saw it signed yourself. And how many times does a person have to tell the same story: "I got this thing signed MYSELF only to have an expert say it was a fake!"
Having said that - you have a better chance of selling a PSA or GAI auto than with no authentication at all IMO.
your friend
Mike
I've never been sold on autograph "experts" anyway. I mean, you'd have to be able to know for sure what a signature looked like under any given circumstance on any particular day in a person's life. I've told this story before, but it's worth mentioning again. I got Frank Thomas to sign a card for me on Opening Day 1998 in Arlington. He signed it standing at the rail with the card pressed against his thigh. It looks like pretty much every other Frank Thomas autograph I've seen on certified, pack-pulled card, but it's a little off, probably due to the awkward stance Frank was standing in when he signed it. Later that summer there was a card show at a local mall and there was an autograph "expert" there doing free appraisals and stuff. I showed him the Frank card, just to test him. He said it was a fake because the 'F' wasn't formed properly or something, and it didn't have the '35' that Frank "always" puts on his sigs. I have no idea who that guy was or what his credentials were, but when I told him where I got it, he dismissed me and pretty much called me a liar, and what did I need it authenticated for if it was so real? Who knows, maybe that guy's working for PSA/DNA now.
And don't forget, PSA/DNA didn't say it was a fake. They said "Likely Not Genuine" which isn't the same thing. There's definitely room for doubt. In my decidedly amateur opinion, though, it doesn't look to me like a single one of the letters in the examples Stone posted are the same. Even allowing for changes over time and when and how they were signed, I can't believe they are from the same hand. At least not one trying to sign an actual signature. I know sometimes I vary my signature quite a bit, like when I sign my debit card receipts at the card shop, compared to signing contracts or something.
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
On the other hand I have also witnessed current players sign a ball in the locker room which they do when they are in town and it's convenient either before or after practice. The one's that don't sign or just miss it for some reason (i.e. getting treatment) then the secretary ramps up the pen again and finishes the "team ball". Believe me, it takes some serious practice to get down some of those awful signatures.
As for PSA/DNA, they aren't getting paid for being right "most of the time". They need to be right 99.9% of the time or the service is worthless.
It is hysterical to me how these dealers provide "certificates of authenticity". They might as well be written on toilet paper, at least you can use it later for some good purpose.
I thought you sold that card?
your friend
Mike
It has been sold
the sig looks here? Tell me its more than..."well this looks like this one and I know this was is real so this one must be real."
So far there is a lot of doubt here but no one can tell me what makes PSA/DNA stand apart. Has anyone here ever had a card
graded by PSA? How do they know it is real? Again, if they can't tell if a number has been erased on the back of a bowman
chrome Pujols card, how can they tell if I didn't trace a Maris or a Dimaggio graph on the front of my 1963 Yankee program?
JS
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Q: Do you guarantee that the autographs you certify are genuine and those you do not are fake?
A: No. We do not guarantee autographs under the Vintage Certified program. By using this program,
you are paying for the opinion of the top experts in the world, using state-of-the-art examination
tools and techniques.
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So all you get is someone's opinion on this? What makes this opinion better than Upper Deck's and why is
there NO mention of the "state-of-the-art" techniques? What do they actually do? How come under the
description of the process 85% of the description talkes about the DNA strand they put on the item and
only 15% of the description is about the actual authentication....urrrrr...isn't the authentication the most
important part?
JS
So to answer your question, PSA is not the "be all end all" but in this case I would trust them more than UD.
<< <i>again everyone is acting like a pro here >>
Come on Kevin
Not everyone - some like myself have said they know squat and just want to engage in a conversation. Would it make you feel safer in your home if we don't talk about this?
your friend
Mike
I appreciate your post, my comment wasn't aimed at you. Im just amazed that everyone is ready to jump down UD's throat but when
asked how they know PSA is right they dont' know. Im on a PSA board here and no one can tell me how they authenticate old autographs...
thats kinda scary don't you think??
I guess I won't be sending in any of the heritage autos Im sure to pull from 2005 packs huh??
Kevin
I agree with your right to question whatever you want. sounds like a legitimate question. However PSA is watching and criticism is not allowed on these boards. I know your JUST asking a question, but how does PSA see it? You would think to avoid this problem the card companies could just give you a redemption card for a PSA/DNA authenticated card. PSA are considered the experts, so why not avoid the whole controversy? This is what may end up happening after this all gets out.
In the end, Its another welcomed blow to modern card collecting. Auto-swatch-1:1 oversaturation in the market anyway, and now this. Vintage is the answer again.
GG
GG
The good folks at PSA/DNA have made plenty of people plenty of money and we should be grateful for their service, not questioning it. These folks are trained in the science of autograph authentication. They're certified in their craft. We are not. End of story. If you have a problem with a autograph you obtained in person and it came back as no good from PSA/DNA, then by all means, discuss that. Don't waste our time asking silly questions like 'How can we trust PSA/DNA'.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Groucho Marx
on his door:
After I work on your brain it may or may not work right, you are just paying for me to stick my hands inside you and move stuff around.
????
Does making people "alot of money" mean that they know a signature is real?
JS
<< <i>
Does making people "alot of money" mean that they know a signature is real?
JS >>
Does it really matter?
If I have an autograph and PSA/DNA states that it's real, that's all I need to know. I know if I put it up on ebay, I'll make good money on it. I'm happy, PSA/DNA is happy and my buyer is happy and that's all I care about.
Did PSA/DNA reject an auto of yours or something to make you go on this crusade? You're coming off as sour grapes!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
<< <i>Mike
I appreciate your post, my comment wasn't aimed at you. Im just amazed that everyone is ready to jump down UD's throat but when
asked how they know PSA is right they dont' know. Im on a PSA board here and no one can tell me how they authenticate old autographs...
thats kinda scary don't you think??
I guess I won't be sending in any of the heritage autos Im sure to pull from 2005 packs huh??
Kevin >>
Hey Kevin
I was just messin with ya! We need some "heat" right now. The question of authenticity and who determines it, is just as important and relevant as all the fakes that are out there that are being sold.
The question of authenticity and who is validating stuff hit home for the SCD boys who look at game used stuff - a Tom Seaver glove that was to be sold at a recent Sotheby's auction was pulled when SCD Authentic messed up. SCD is running some articles on authenticating the authenticators to discuss this very thing of "how" a person gets to be an expert - also the subject of propriety has to be addressed too in light of the fact that sometimes, authenticators are the "source" of items being sold at auctions.
It's healthy to enquire - PSA, SCD, GAI authenticators are only going to be kept on their toes if people keep an eye on them.
your friend
Mike
So how does one tell the difference between a fake and a real auto? You can't go by the actual sig as it could be traced...do you
then know the age of the ink? How can PSA just look at a scan and say it is fake?? Funny, neither, UD, PSA or Beckett has responded
to any emails on this subject. Its all about making money right? If so, then everyone can stop caring about people faking stuff cause
it just doesn't matter.
and I take it there are actually people out there who want to know that there stuff is actually real and not just so they can make money??
JS
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
If you knew anything about PSA/DNA, you'd know that when they authenticate signatures, they carefully check each autograph and compare it to exemplars they already have on file. Then they check to see if the slant, flow, pen pressure, letter size and characteristics typical of the authentic exemplars.
This is what he was asking to begin with!!! Your kinda freaking me out as well with your seemingly standard initial comments that "PSA is the authority, why question the masters... PSA is god, PSA is god, PSA is god..." mantra everytime anybody questions anything remotely questioning PSA.
ITS OK TO QUESTION PROCESSES AND SEEK OPINIONS!! This seems like a valid question. Who do you trust? PSA/DNA or UD?! Seems fair to me. Having said that, I ultimately agree with dabighurt in that PSA/DNA are indeed the industry leaders and I would trust them over anyone else. So in my opinion UD probably flubbed it.
GG
hey if you are from PSA great, come out and tell us, no need to hide behind some username. Dont you think people here should
understand the process? Do you think they are going to steal it and open up their own company? Why is it that at last resort
the companies have to scream like I just raped them. I guess standard operating procedure is to run the inquisitive around
in circles before giving up the secret of why PSA is greatest show on earth?
What about guys who change their signature? I can name at least 5 football players right now that sign differently than they did a few
years ago...whats on file now? What if a guy signs the card on this knee or against a wall..what happens to "flow, slant, and pressure
then"?? Whats on file for when Maris signed when he just hit the game winning homer or lost a tough game....is that sig the same?
Who judged the "one on file" real? what was that compared to?
Again it was pointed out that if you or I signed our name 20 times, that a small percentage of them would
look differently. With that margin or error how can anyone come out and take one look at a card, not to mention a card certified by one
of the major card companies, and call it a fake??
Or would the powers at be just rather sweep this under the rug with the other dirt?
LMK
JS
So let me ask you. Have YOU personally come across a questionable signature that YOU obtained in person that PSA/DNA rejected? If you haven't, then why are you still posting? Or perhaps you have a friend who was given a 'bogus' opinion by PSA/DNA? Bring what you have to the table instead of going around trying to stir fecal matter up!
Or perhaps open the Joe Stalin Professional Authenticating Service on your own, if you're such an expert. I'm sure you'll have plenty of people lined up to pay for your opinion.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Bottom line is if you did not watch the person write their name on the item, you can't 100% testify in court that it is legit. but if I was not there to see it signed, I would like to have PSA/DNA's experts investigate the signature and let me know that it is authentic. I think UDA is a very good service, I believe them when they tell me that they witnessed the person sign the item, but when it comes to vintage and cut signatures- I think PSA/DNA is more reliable and have more credibility in judging that type of item. I don't know that UD has anyone on staff who is an expert in vintage signatures, PSA/DNA has a team of experts. I think UD is good at watching people sign things and PSA/DNA is good at authenticating items that were signed in the past.
on this board ever since you have been here. You can't find the solution, so you go slamming me. You know that taking me on in the
smack game is going to mean a loss for you...why even go there??? You have ran from so many arguments with me that your shoes no
longer have bottoms!
Oh wait Im asking too may questions...I must be a scorned customer.....maybe even an employee of beckett!!!!
My point is, they deemed a certified autograph card "probably fake" without even as much as touching the card of having it right
in front of them! I guess the 20 bucks or however much have you to pay gets you a look with a magnifing glass huh?
Again, for the 400th time...if they couldn't tell the difference between a forged Pujols rookie card that had ink removed, how can they
tell a Maris auto from a scan??? They are pretty much calling UD liars and questioning hundreds of thousands of dollars in cut sig cards that
they have made the past 4 years. I think thats worth finding the answer for. If UD is inserting fake cut sig cards in their products then this news
needs to be out NOW
If you have nothing to say about the issue then just step aside Im sure someone who has some knowledge in this subject in on the way
right now.
JS
I have an awesome example of the variation in autographs. My wife and I were bored in Boca several years ago and went to the Virginia Slims Tennis tournament one day. We saw Stefi Graf play and I was persistant enough to get her to sign my ticket stub from the match. Now this was during the mad rush with the crowd and she had her own blue ballpoint pen and signed it. My wife wasn't as aggresive and didn't get one. So we waited until after the press conference after the match and staked out the back door. Armed with our sharpie marker, Stefi came out and we ran her down and she then signed the ticket with our pen without any crowd, and not walking. The difference in sigs is unreal. If this thred isn't blocked or deleted in the next couple days i'll try to find them in storage and post them.
In the end, I say screw autographs unless you get them in person or they are already verified by a reputable company that will assure its value.
GG
NOW will you please post more info or a link to this funky Pujols card already!!
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I know that Mastronet uses PSA/DNA for their autograph authentication, and I'm pretty sure Hunt Auctions and HSC do for their auction lots as well. Now if Upper Deck can determine that the autograph came from one of those 3 sources rather than Quality Autographs, what does this mean for PSA/DNA?
Dude, you need to calm down.
Why do you trust PSA to grade your cards? Are the experts they use to grade the cards better than the ones they use to verify handwriting?
As far as why we look to PSA/DNA as the 'source', it's because they employ the best handwriting experts in the world to authenticate signatures, based against known authentic examples they have on hand, and the process is (I am sure) a lengthy, detailed, and thorough process. If it were easy to do then there would be 'experts' everywhere verifying signatures. The fact that so few people attempt to do it just screams out how difficult it is.
PSA is a big business...and they have to protect their liability by putting their disclaimer saying they may make an error....but I'd be willing to bet the rate of failure is miniscule at the most.
How about this stalin? Why don't you tell us why NOT to trust the world's leading experts? Have you ever heard of them authenticating a card that WASN'T legit?
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>I wasn't the one who looked at a scan of a card and said it was fake. What does this have to do with me? You have done the same thing
on this board ever since you have been here. You can't find the solution, so you go slamming me. You know that taking me on in the
smack game is going to mean a loss for you...why even go there??? You have ran from so many arguments with me that your shoes no
longer have bottoms!
JS >>
Joe, Chris Rix has a better chance of beating the Hurricanes than you do in winning a 'smack' contest.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
All these authentifications are opinions. They will be wrong sometimes. And if you get 2 different experts, you may get 2 different opinions. Value of an items is placed based on how trusted that opinion is.
I have some knowledge on auto's since I collect them. I am no expert.
When I buy an uncertified auto, I study the know examples. I check to see if I think it's authentic. I then get a Quick Opinion if I think it's real. Only then do I bid. Finnally, I submit the item for authentification. If it passes that, then I feel comfortable that it's real. I accept the fact that I have a forgery in my collection, but the vast majority is real.
When looking at the Maris card in question, it looked to me like a very bad forgery. It looked like no Maris signature I have ever seen. If it wasn't certified by UD, I would have laughed.
I submitted it to PSA/DNA to get an expert opinion. I had come to one of 2 conclusions:
1) It was an early career auto and his signature had changed over the years. I simply was unfamiliar with this variation
2) It was a fake
Usually, if I had a quick opinion stating one thing, and a legit COA stating the opposite, I would go with the COA. But this auto doesn't look even close to real. I strongly feel that the auto is a fake.
What is concerning me is that there are more then one issue with the cut auto's in this set.
1) An Eddie Collins cut auto card had a Edd Roush cut in it
2) There was another auto that came up that someone researched that PSA/DNA had an article on. The article noted that his wife goast signed his auto requests late in life due to illness. The article described all the telltale signs to look for in the wife's autograph. The cut auto had all of the marks of the wife's auto. I can't remember the player's name, but there is a good thread on the Beckett board. I'll look it up and post the link.
3) This card.
That's a concerning number of likely errors.
If UD has poor quality control on these, the market on cut auto's will crumble.
But I am not saying that PSA/DNA is infallable. I had purchased 7 auto's from a seller that bought a large lot of HOF auto postcards off MastroNet and was selling the cards seperately. The cards all had the same blanket LOA from PSA/DNA (LOA's do not provide the invisible seal or cert number). I submitted them to PSA/DNA to get individual certs and to get them slabbed.
One of the auto's was regected.
Now, it's possible that the seller switched the card, but this was the least valuable of the auto's I had submitted (Rube Marquard). I find that highly unlikely. It looks like they came to different conclusions with the 2 submissions on the same card. Again, it's an opinion.
Certifying auto's is difficult. And errors are probably more frequent then we would like. But the Maris auto is a bad fake, and that type of quality control is not acceptable.