PSA vs BGS

Tammy

Hello Everyone,

I have some high grade PSA cards and I noticed that BGS 9.5 are gaining value over PSA 10, which surprised me. Does anyone know why this is?

Thanks,
Tamara Pflipsen

teachervido

<< <i>Hello Everyone,

I have some high grade PSA cards and I noticed that BGS 9.5 are gaining value over PSA 10, which surprised me. Does anyone know why this is?

Thanks,
Tamara Pflipsen >>



Reason: Beckett is the leading price guide magazine out there! They control the market, and I sure do like their holders

Knuckles

To many lame collectors think Beckett is the be all and end all just because of their price guides.

If your selling get your cards graded by BGS. If you want high quality graded cards for your own personal collection go with PSA or SGC for vintage.

jrdolan

Beckett is quite successful at convincing their readers that BGS 9.5 is more desirable than PSA 10. One way they do this is by simply listing BGS 9.5 higher than PSA 10 in their guide. The other way to get Beckett Nation whipped up about 9.5's is to report on "auctions" where a 9.5 Pujols rookie, for example, sells for an eye-popping amount. Sometimes, the "buyer" never pays up and the card goes back out and sells for a lot less. You see this progression a lot in Beckett's own descriptions. $500 card sells for $5,000 because it's 9.5. Oops, buyer reneged and it's up for sale again. Another headline in the next issue. Was the first "sale" real, or just a controlled PR stunt?

Since BGS 9.5 sometimes is a former PSA 8 with a nice trim, or a sheet-cut card, I personally refuse to drink that Kool-Aid.

DaBigHurt

HEH!

Stone193

Or you can give my new company a shot?

PSG - PogoStickGrading Inc.





Think Pogo logo when you want the best! We have the new innovative 4 point grading system which was recently stolen from us - there are imatators and duplicators but there is only one PSG!

Brian48

Beckett does have a more stringent rule regarding centering. Edges, corners, and surface can be subjective between grading services, but centering standards are pretty concrete and measurable. For a BGS 9.5 - make sure your PSA 10 has a centering of 50/50 for at least one side and no more than 55/45 for the other. You are only allowed one 55/45. GAI allows you 55/45 for both top/bottom and left/right. PSA is much looser as you are allowed a very generous 60/40 for both top/bottom and left/right.

With the lower grades, it can be argued that BGS is as sloppy as the rest, but when it comes to the very high grades, they can be very picky.

phreakydancin

<< <i>Hello Everyone,

I have some high grade PSA cards and I noticed that BGS 9.5 are gaining value over PSA 10, which surprised me. Does anyone know why this is?

Thanks,
Tamara Pflipsen >>

I thought it was going the other way, actually. I think in wake of the great number of BGS 10s that have appeared on the market recently, Beckett has lost their "killer grader" reputation.

helionaut

Since the day they appeared, high grade BGS cards have always sold for more than similar PSA grades. This is especially true for shiny chrome rookies and the like. That's just the way the market went, and I don't think it had anything to do with the prices in the guide, which has always been limited in covering graded cards. It is probably due to the fact that collectors who aren't as advanced as, you know, we are, read Beckett for the prices thinking they are accurate, and then Beckett started saying,"Hey grading is catching on" and then starting their own brand. It's just very effective market identification and brand loyalty. But it's not really a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Fabfrank

But it's not really a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Actually, the way Beckett manipulated the graded card market, it did become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Prior to Beckett listing the value of graded cards and actually offering their grading service, PSA and SGC cards were the only valid options when it came to graded cards. Ironically, in some cases SGC cards were getting stronger prices than PSA. When Beckett started their grading service they listed the value of graded cards as a whole. After BGS established a foot hold in the market, Beckett annouced that they were going to list separate values for their cards, PSA cards and "all other" grading companies. Beckett opined, that since they felt their cards were worth more, they would list their cards at the highest price, PSA at the next highest, and everyone else after that.
At this point there was no criteria for this. Beckett printed it, so readers thought "It must be true"
Brilliant manipulation on Becketts part, but sadly, newbie and narrowly informed modern buyers started believing it and started bidding up the price of Beckett cards.
A price guide should reflect the prices cards receive in the market, not the direction of prices that the guide believes the cards should receive. By promoting their cards in this subtle manner, Beckett was able to garner their current market share. Thus the Beckett price guide became a "self-fulfilling prophecy"

ctsoxfan

Well said, Frank. I actually think that this question was posted here just to stir the pot a little, but whatever - I'll play along.

The only people that value BGS graded cards over PSA cards are the less-informed, less demanding, collectors of modern issues - who get their information spoon fed to them from the troth of Beckett magazines. Beckett further soils their own reputation by offering a BCCG division, where everything basically gets a "10 Mint or better" grade for around $5 a card. And, anything older than, say, 1980 is graded by BVG - which has been a disaster in the marketplace versus PSA, GAI and even SGC. It is unfortunate that no one else could come up with a price guide that could compete with Beckett, and thereby lessen their pull with the young, easily influenced collector base (tommorrow's collectors of vintage).

tennesseebanker

For vintage collectors there is no comparison Psa simply has the best product offered and thier cards demand way more in the market than any Bvg card. Modern collectors on the other hand have been manipulated by the strtegic marketing of beckett in believing thier cards are worth more. I have a few modern cards within my vast collection of vintage stuff and most if not all of them are psa graded as well. In my opinion it just looks better to have all your cards graded by the same company not to mention they all store better. If you look at any past auctions of the top cards auctioned in the past 10 years you will see that 95% or more of them were graded by Psa. If you wait another 10 years to see a Beckett graded card in an auction it will more than likely be an auction for a coaster or paperweight that says Beckett on it.

Fabfrank

ctsoxfan- This is probably the third time I've written a response to this question. Having collected through this period (and many others), I was just amazed at what I was seeing at the time. I have a few Beckett cards in my collection, but would never pay a premium for them over PSA or SGC. "Collect the Card, not the Holder"

DaBigHurt

Time has proven that PSA is the most reliable card grading company in existence. We all know they invest more into training their personnel and have more experience than BGS, SGC and GAI combined! The other card grading companies simply do not have what it takes to grade baseball cards like PSA can! No amount of training will ever change that. It's why we all invest so much into PSA. It's why we pay a subscription fee just to get the right to submit cards to be graded! We know that at the end of the day, the PSA cards will sell for more and that's all that really matters.

Check the other card grading companies and see how much time they spend actually grading each and every card and you'll see why PSA is #1. The other companies take a cursory glance at the card and random assign a grade. Not at PSA. You folks saw the video PSA shot of their facility and know how sure each and every card is scrutinized. I would wager PSA spends a good 8-10 minutes 'picking apart' a card before assigning a grade. You think Beckett, SGC or GAI spend that much time on each card? You'll be lucky to get their graders to spend more than 10 seconds looking over a card! The folks at PSA don't miss anything and that's what makes them the most reliable and consistent graders around.

Vincecarder

It's always fun to read the PSA vs BGS comments...especially on a PSA board.

I grade with both companies but have found more consistant grading with BGS. I've had cards jump up two grades on submissions but the highest I've had a BGS card jump was one grade.

I think there are a ton of collectors that read Beckett but they can see with their own two eyes that BGS outsells PSA on plenty of cards. I personally like subgrades.....how else do you explain me selling a 93 SP Jeter BGS 9 for over $1000? Because it was .5 away from a BGS 9.5. A PSA 9 would NEVER get that kind of money.

I think PSA has been around long enough to have die hard supporters that will NEVER turn on the company. I for one am a modern collector and after spending big money on PSA cards from dealers like dslsports only to see that ALL the cards I purchased were overgraded...well I stopped buying PSA for quite sometime.

If your into vintage....sure go with PSA but you will be surprised on what BVG cards are pulling on Ebay. I think PSA should also let the POP reports be free.....I know I use BGS pop reports....why still charge for them?

5thScaleRacer

<< <i>It's always fun to read the PSA vs BGS comments...especially on a PSA board.

I grade with both companies but have found more consistant grading with BGS. I've had cards jump up two grades on submissions but the highest I've had a BGS card jump was one grade.

I think there are a ton of collectors that read Beckett but they can see with their own two eyes that BGS outsells PSA on plenty of cards. I personally like subgrades.....how else do you explain me selling a 93 SP Jeter BGS 9 for over $1000? Because it was .5 away from a BGS 9.5. A PSA 9 would NEVER get that kind of money.

I think PSA has been around long enough to have die hard supporters that will NEVER turn on the company. I for one am a modern collector and after spending big money on PSA cards from dealers like dslsports only to see that ALL the cards I purchased were overgraded...well I stopped buying PSA for quite sometime.

If your into vintage....sure go with PSA but you will be surprised on what BVG cards are pulling on Ebay. I think PSA should also let the POP reports be free.....I know I use BGS pop reports....why still charge for them? >>





I too like BGS...especially their holders.

However, I find it troubling that BGS also has their own store where they sell BGS graded cards.

Now, isn't that a conflict of interest?

EagleEyeKid

Blah!
I agree. Buy the card and not the holder.
That's why I like PRO because all their
cards look so purrty in them.

Engineer

I am comfortable buying PSA and BGS cards but it will be a long time before I submit to BGS again. I had sent a few modern submissions in to BGS last year because they do pretty well when selling on ebay. I was pretty happy with BGS until my last submission when they were all over the map on some cards I sent, primarily in regards to centering but also edges on some basketball stickers. Centering is very easy to check because you can scan them into a computer and measure pixels if you want - needless to say I was well within their own criteria for much higher grades or I probably would not have submitted them for grading. I ended up doing something I thought I would never do, breaking out several cards and submitting them on the PSA November Special on my own dime. Here is a breakdown of the resubmit:

86 Karl Malone: BGS 6 to PSA 8 (this was given a 5 on centering)
86 Charles Barkley: BGS 7.5 to PSA 8
87 Barry Bonds: BGS 7 to PSA 8
87 Barry Bonds: BGS 6.5 to PSA 8
Jordan Sticker: BGS 6 to PSA 7
Jordan Sticker: BGS 7.5 to PSA 8
Jordan Sticker: BGS 6 to PSA 8

Keep in mind this was out of a 20 card submission and I would have had another card going out if I hadn't damaged it removing it from the holder (almost 50%). I felt the BGS 8+ cards I kept were graded fairly, but I was tempted to try to resubmit them considering my experience with the other cards that I did resubmit. What made me pretty mad at BGS was I wasted $7 a pop (+ shipping) for these cards that according to my previous submission experience, their own criteria, and my PSA results, should have graded much higher. You can also imagine my consternation at receiving the BGS grades in the first place and wondering if I had any clue about card grading at all.

It feels good to get this off my chest - I've been stewing on this for a couple of months now. I realize almost everybody has some sad stories about sending cards in for grading and not receiving what they expected, but felt that this was pretty extreme.

Adam

ctsoxfan

<< <i>If your into vintage....sure go with PSA but you will be surprised on what BVG cards are pulling on Ebay. >>



This is primarily due to crossover potential to a PSA holder for the Registry, but there is always the chance that your card won't cross due to the infamous "EVID OF TRIM".

ajw

I don't have a horse in this race, as I don't submit to either and most read these boards for the chatter about the hobby. But, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the industry demographics working against PSA and for BGS.

Sure, PSA is the top dog in vintage. But, BGS appears to be the boss in modern. You might say that you don't care, but eventually there won't be any more vintage to grade. Sure, you can crack and resubmit, but that has to dwindle eventually. I'd much rather be in BGS' shoes and have the lead in the market that is still producing new items to grade. It might look good when a 1952 Mantle PSA 9 sells for a record price, but PSA doesn't get a cut of it.

In my book, if PSA stays the king in vintage and BGS is the king in modern, PSA will have a hard time turning a profit at some point in the future. (how long in the future, I don't know, but it will happen.)

Discuss.

Fabfrank

Guys, it's fine to collect and support BGS. It's also fine to collect and support PSA. My main point in the thread was to make those who support BGS aware of how those prices came to be.
Why won't a PSA 9 93 SP Jeter garner the same money as a BGS 9? Because the Beckett guide says it shouldn't. The market didn't set the price for Beckett cards, Beckett did! The sheep followed what Beckett printed and made the prices happen. This goes back to the "self-fulfilling prophecy" comment.
In any other business this is blatant price manipulation. In the world of Beckett graded cards, it's business as usual.

Ahmanfan

Hey guys

no expert collector/grader here by any means, but this post below that I'm replying to should justify why beckett graded cards sell at or above psa in at least some cases...

the same card graded a Beckett 6 and a PSA 8... to ME that means that Beckett grades more harshly, and I would now pay more for a Beckett 8 of that issue than a PSA 8 because the BGS 8 would/should be of higher quality. Just banter.

John





<< <i>I am comfortable buying PSA and BGS cards but it will be a long time before I submit to BGS again. I had sent a few modern submissions in to BGS last year because they do pretty well when selling on ebay. I was pretty happy with BGS until my last submission when they were all over the map on some cards I sent, primarily in regards to centering but also edges on some basketball stickers. Centering is very easy to check because you can scan them into a computer and measure pixels if you want - needless to say I was well within their own criteria for much higher grades or I probably would not have submitted them for grading. I ended up doing something I thought I would never do, breaking out several cards and submitting them on the PSA November Special on my own dime. Here is a breakdown of the resubmit:

86 Karl Malone: BGS 6 to PSA 8 (this was given a 5 on centering)
86 Charles Barkley: BGS 7.5 to PSA 8
87 Barry Bonds: BGS 7 to PSA 8
87 Barry Bonds: BGS 6.5 to PSA 8
Jordan Sticker: BGS 6 to PSA 7
Jordan Sticker: BGS 7.5 to PSA 8
Jordan Sticker: BGS 6 to PSA 8

Keep in mind this was out of a 20 card submission and I would have had another card going out if I hadn't damaged it removing it from the holder (almost 50%). I felt the BGS 8+ cards I kept were graded fairly, but I was tempted to try to resubmit them considering my experience with the other cards that I did resubmit. What made me pretty mad at BGS was I wasted $7 a pop (+ shipping) for these cards that according to my previous submission experience, their own criteria, and my PSA results, should have graded much higher. You can also imagine my consternation at receiving the BGS grades in the first place and wondering if I had any clue about card grading at all.

It feels good to get this off my chest - I've been stewing on this for a couple of months now. I realize almost everybody has some sad stories about sending cards in for grading and not receiving what they expected, but felt that this was pretty extreme.

Adam >>

goudeygold

My opinion is this:

PSA/SGC then GAI for vintage.
BGS for modern.

This is what BGS wants anyway, so let them have the modern stuff. I picked up the current issue of Beckett monthly for the first time in probably 12 years. The first 10-12 pages of their price guide covered 75+ years of cards (1909-1982). The last ten years of cards (1994 to present) accounted for over 240 pages (!!!!). If this isn't proof of modern market saturation, (and Beckett is the card makers cheerleader for modern products) I don't know what is.

Plus for modern cards I think PSA isn't strict enough on their 10s. We've all seen 10's with minor issues, and thats debatable, BUT on newer cards that retail for nearly $1 per card out of the pack, they better be microscopically perfect. And this is where BGS is preferred in the prices realized IF you can get the 9.5 or pristine label. If you have a modern "8" you may as well throw it in the garbage.

From an earlier thread it is important to note that Beckett has announced crazy priced sales only to have the card never change hands. So thats my 2 cents based upon what i've seen in the real market. I personally am glad PSA never seems to hype anything modern from what i've seen. Definately seems like a better long term marketing model than chasing all 50 different issues all with parallells, refracters, gold foil, etc... sets to go with each of them that BGS pumps up til you want to puke.

GG

goudeygold

Sorry for the double post but...

dabighurt says:

"We all know they (PSA) invest more into training their personnel and have more experience than BGS, SGC and GAI combined!"



Actually I personally have no idea what the PSA card grading training program involves. Do you personally know the orientation program PSA uses for new graders? Do you work for PSA (or an authorized dealer?), or have first hand knowlege of their training program?

I'm just very curious as to what it takes and how much training PSA gives its employees. So let us know. Very interesting.

GG

Tammy

I thank you all for taking time to write all this information. I have found it very helpful and interesting.

lawnmowerman

The only thing I dont like about PSA cards is the holder they use. There is no penny sleeve and the card always seem to move around inside the holder. PSA says to ship the cards to them in a penny sleeve and cardsaver to prevent movement and damage but when you get your cards back they are all moving around inside the PSA holders. It just doesnt make sense to me. BGS holders seem to have a better design. I dont know if thats the reason but I would but alot more PSA cards if the holders utilized a penny sleeve.

goudeygold

I think GAIs case is beautiful. Black surround, silver tag that wraps around the top so you can find your card without sliding them across each other, smooth edges, bottom seal, etc... I also wish PSA would upgrade the case design as well, but I guess you can't have it all.

GG

lawnmowerman

GAI's cases are nice too! Do they utilize a penny sleeve as well?

jrdolan

I have no real beef with BVG, at least the stuff that was graded early on. With a couple of unhappy exceptions I've been able to cross them at par to PSA. A couple have even gotten a half-point bump.

But BGS is a different story. I tried to cross two of them at par to PSA last summer. One of them, min. grade was not met (twice) and the other was "evid. trim" (also twice), which may have meant sheet-cut. This is a very small sample, but I was not tempted to experiment further. Two strikes (actually 2 twice) was enough.

As for BCCG, forget it. Beckett even admits in its guide that BCCG 9 is equivalent to PSA 7. BCCG, like PRO, is for people who feel better with a high number on their lower-grade card. Might as well put a piece of white tape on your toploader and write "9" on it, save the five bucks.

DaBigHurt

<< <i>Sorry for the double post but...

dabighurt says:

"We all know they (PSA) invest more into training their personnel and have more experience than BGS, SGC and GAI combined!"



Actually I personally have no idea what the PSA card grading training program involves. Do you personally know the orientation program PSA uses for new graders? Do you work for PSA (or an authorized dealer?), or have first hand knowlege of their training program?

I'm just very curious as to what it takes and how much training PSA gives its employees. So let us know. Very interesting.

GG >>




I'm sure if you take a poll of the posters around here, they'll agree with me. Across the board, the graders at PSA are more consistent and better trained. That's why they have such a loyal following. If they were unable to grade consistently, why would people continue supporting them? I've heard some horror stories about how people who disagreed with a BGS or GAI grade and sent the card back in for regrading eventually got the grade they liked. A person with a modern issue BGS 9 and unhappy with the grade kept resubmitting until he got his desired 9.5 grade. That to me smacks of incompetence on the BGS staff. A card should be graded the same each and every time! You just don't hear stories about this happening to PSA, because PSA is much more consistent. With the proper training and staff, they don't let things like this happen. You buy a PSA 9 or 10 card, you know you're paying for an accurately graded card. The chances of resubmitting that card for a bump in a grade is nonexistent with PSA.

pandrews

<< <i>The chances of resubmitting that card for a bump in a grade is nonexistent with PSA. >>



surely you're joking..

i agree that PSA is more consistent, but there is always a chance of resubmitting and getting a different grade, higher or lower..

Brian48

<< <i>GAI's cases are nice too! Do they utilize a penny sleeve as well? >>



No, they don't. Personally, I would like the GAI holder more if it was not so damn loose. Of the all holders from big players, these have the most play and the cards bounce around like crazy in it.

Gemmy10

Tammy, I think this is the first time I saw a woman collector post on this board. Very nice to see!!!!

aconte

After reading this post the only conclusion I can draw is that 'dabighurt' lives in a dream world.
I just wish he would share whatever he is smoking with the rest of us!

aconte

goudeygold

Sounds almost like dabighurt is a relentless pumper for PSA. That why I asked if he worked for them, or at a minimum was an authorized dealer. Sure, I agree PSA does an overall great job and they have resounding market share to prove it, but to think that resubmitting any PSA card a second time and getting a bump up in grade is "nonexistant", sounds a bit extreme as aconte stated as well. While I do not have a personal example to share proving this, I doubt I could reasonably post it anyway for fear of being banned from the board. Does anyone out there have any examples they want to risk sharing?

GG

wolfbear

Do I detect a note of sarcasm in DaBigHurt's posts ...

jrdolan

I agree with wolfbear. It's gotta be tongue in cheek. Hard to tell facetious inflection from a written post without a at the end. Maybe the guys pumping just as hard for BGS are being sarcastic, too.

NickM

I saw a '49 Bowman Jerry Coleman BVG 1.5 with a 0.5 surface grade (all the other subgrades appeared accurate). With the dealer's permission, I took it over to the Beckett booth to discuss the surface subgrade with them - the card had multiple (5 or 6) creases, but no paper loss, no holes or writing, and no scuffing. The Beckett rep insisted that that was the proper surface grade for a card with multiple creases like that, and basically said that I graded my cards too loosely. I then asked him why that card would under his standards get the exact same grade if I took it out and punched a hole through it with a hole puncher. He didn't answer.
Based on the other subgrades, a boost to 1.0 on the surface subgrade would have boosted the overall grade to 2.0, and a boost to 1.5 on the surface subgrade probably would have boosted the overall grade to 2.5.
I don't have a problem with calling the card Fair as an overall grade (if I were selling it raw, I'd probably list it as Fair to Good, and I wouldn't call it misgraded to put it in a PSA 1 holder or a GAI 1.5 holder. But I will say that Beckett's graders manipulated the subgrades to keep the card in a 1.5 holder, because an honest assessment of the surface subgrade of this card is NOT 0.5, and they were aware that a higher surface subgrade, because of their algorithm for calculating the final grade, would have given the card a higher grade.
I would be OK with Beckett having certain exceptions to its algorithm where there would be no boost to a card's overall grade from other subgrades if one subgrade (normally surface) was bad enough - it would be perfectly honest to say that this card is a 1.0 or 1.5 surface grade, and we really don't care what the centering, corners, and edges are, it's not going over 1.5 as an overall grade.
But what they did is to attempt to preserve the algorithm inviolate by tailoring the subgrades to give the desired result.
That is intellectually dishonest, and is not what we pay grading companies for.

On modern cards, BGS is much more strict than PSA in its centering tolerance at the highest grades - a card is still eligible for a PSA 10 if it's centered slightly better than 60/40, but to get a 9.5 subgrade on centering from BGS, a card must be 55/45 or better both ways. On borderless cards, however, this is a joke. Centering on most of these cards has to go by eye appeal, because there are no set measurement points.

On vintage cards, I don't and wouldn't use BVG. I don't get modern cards graded.

Nick

Stone193

<< <i>Do I detect a note of sarcasm in DaBigHurt's posts ... >>