Is Ultra Cam and Deep Cam the same term???

newport

Thanks....Adam from Miami

Cameonut

No - but they are similar.

Deep Cam is used by PCGS to denote the highest level of cameo contrast.
Ultra Cam is used by NGC for their higest level of cameo contrast.

Historically, the difference has been that the PCGS standard to make Dcam is tougher than the NGC standard to make Ultracam. So there are coins that are in NGC Ultracam holders that will not grade Dcam at PCGS.

flaminio

And ANACS calls these HVY CAMEO but I don't know what standard they use to determine that, or how it compares to PCGS or NGC.

JrGMan2004

<< <i>Historically, the difference has been that the PCGS standard to make Dcam is tougher than the NGC standard to make Ultracam. So there are coins that are in NGC Ultracam holders that will not grade Dcam at PCGS. >>

I don't know that this is necessarily true... from what I've heard from Russ... NGC is more focused on the strength of frost, and PCGS is more focused on deep mirrors... so, there's coins that'll DCAM, but only CAM at NGC, and there's coins that'll UCAM, but only CAM at PCGS, and then there's those kick-ass coins that'll get DCAM or UCAM either side of the street...

Russ

<< <i>And ANACS calls these HVY CAMEO but I don't know what standard they use to determine that, or how it compares to PCGS or NGC. >>



ANACS is tough. Probably the toughest of all for the top designation. The very few Heavy Cameo ANACS coins I've come across from the 1950 to 1970 era were monsters.

Edited to add: George is correct. Matter of fact, I've had two PCGS cameos recently that failed to even get the designation at NGC. In both cases the mirrors were strong, but the frost a little mellow. Here's one of them:



Was a PCGS MS66CAM. Graded MS66 no cam at NGC.

Russ, NCNE

1907Quarter

Jr.-nice icon but watch your language! Better would be, "BITE ME"

coinguy1

<< <i>Historically, the difference has been that the PCGS standard to make Dcam is tougher than the NGC standard to make Ultracam >>

I disagree with that.

Cameonut

Interesting feedback from some of the board members.

My comment on "historically" means "not recent". I have little expericence with sending coins to NGC in the last 6 months or so - I submit almost exclusively to PCGS. If NGC and PCGS are now grading to the same standard - then great! Maybe be will have more consistency between the two.

But I stand by my comment that in the past, NGC would grant an Ultra before PCGS would grant Dcam status. (similarly with cameo status). This has been my experience with numerous coins that I have submitted to both services and crossover attempts (either in the slab or cracked out). Granted, there are those coins that are "no brainers", but I have yet to run into a coin that would cam at PCGS and not cam at NGC. Perhaps Russ' example is a new phenomenon which is an indication that the past differences between PCGS & NGC are changing.

100proof1957

Yeah well whatever !

cameoproofcoins

In my experience I have found that pcgs has probably been tougher on 50-70 cameos. On proof type I believe that NGC was tougher and that PCGS made a number of coins to catch up in the dcam market. Many were heavily toned or hazed. I think NGC then loosened their standards. I saw a very expensive type coin called dcam, that three knowledgeable people all agree is not a dcam. It also made me mad, since it is a point higher than mine.

LeeG

Heres my example of an ANACS Heavy Cameo Kennedy. Lee

Strat

I have found the two terms mean essentially the same, but there are opinions that Ultra Cameo is well, the ultimate in frosted quality that a proof coin can attain. If you read "Cameo and Brilliant Proof Coinage of the 1950 to 1970 Era", you will get that impression.

raycyca

R&I coins has also been touting a different type of cameo designation for yeras. They are rating DCAMS and CAMS as: DCAM+, DCAM, DCAM-, and the same for the CAM designation. I doubt PCGS will ever agrre to offfer this kind of grading. NGC has something similar to what I've heard. They have some coins that are designated as ultracameo with a * (star) designation. Kind of meaning nice deeper cameo and/or bordering on the next higher grade.
I bought a few PCGS graded Ike's from a fellow board member on E-bay. He stated they were "monster" DCAM coins. Out of 4 coins I got, 3 would make that designation, in my opinion. For example, look at a silver and clad 69DCAM Ike from PCGS side by side. There is a much deeper level of cameo contrast on the silver in the coin. The frost appears deeper because of the softer metal and the ability to produce a sharper strike and higher relief. The silver polishes up better than the clad metal for the blanks. On some of the clad strikes, if early enough in the striking with new dies, the frost is more intense, thus a deeper level of cameo.
In the older days(before 1970), the dies were cleaned with acid and alcohol before striking proof coins. The first few coins produced from a new pair of dies would produce DCAM coins. As the dies wore on, the level of contrast became weaker until there was no cameo at all. On newer proof coins, the dies are sandblasted resulting in coins that are almost all DCAM coins. Hope this helps.

IrishMike

If you ask someone who only collects cameo designated coins in PCGS holders they will tell you that PCGS is way tougher, for example if you buy a DCAM PF 70 Washington you will pay $300 plus. If you ask someone who collects the same series in NGC holders you will pay $65 for the same coin and they will tell you there is no difference in the designation. So who do you believe? Some thoughts, the higher price a dealer can get for a coin the more pure profit dollars there is in the coin, so it behooves them to push the more expensive coin. When dcam registry sets get listed with dealers they often languish in their inventories so the seller often times has to take a loss when selling to a dealer. The few sets that come up intact in auctions often disappoint the seller too. Wholesale submitters have agreements whereby they get minimum grades assigned or they don't pay or pay less then you and me. If you were a TPG would you then hand out the "70" and saturate the market? If you are a TPG and not the market maker in these coins would it be more likey that you are more consistent in the grade or not?

If you absolutely have to have a modern registry set and have to have the DCAM 70's and need to have it here on display then expect to pay more for that privilege and be prepared to take some losses when and if you sell. The cost to brag here is higher then at NGC but then there are a lot more folks here to say way to go, pat you on the back etc.

My suggestion to anyone is too look at dcam, ucam, heavy cam coins and decide for youself independent of the holder and try to determine how much difference there is and whether paying the premium is worth it and whether paying $330 for 5 coins gives you more satisfactin for the buck than buying one coin for the same dollar amount. My eyes are not scientific enough to tell the difference.

newport

Thanks for the info......Adam