Amazing grades on hockey cards??? We can talk about PSA grades all we want on the beckett message bo
Mrcardsniper
Posts: 185 ✭✭
I found the information about sheet cut cards very informative. But was disapponted to hear the bashing of PSA on their own message boards. Not what I would do. I was wondering how long they would let the thread continue... But free speech will prevail. Let's just start the whole thing over again on the Beckett message boards, I'm sure they wont mind that kind of talk.
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Comments
James
Man I wish he were a Phillie!
aconte
<< <i>i kicked a guys ass last week for freely speaking on my property.. >>
I guess that speaking wasn't all that free since he got an ass kicking for it now.
Mike
PS The solution for your free speaking is very simple. Shell out around $60, or somewhere around there for 2 years of domain space. Start a message board site and let everyone speak their minds. Then you won't have to worry about anyone kicking anyone off, but I bet who ever starts that site will kick out people they don't like or don't agree with from time to time.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>I have to agree w/ Iseeyou. To be honest, it doesn't bother me nearly as much as the flood of trimmed/counterfeit cards on E-Bay or cards companies selling trimmed/counterfeit cards (such as PRO). Personally, I'd like to see PRO run out of business since they are probably the largest scumbag grading company out there.
Regards,
Greg M. >>
Greg:
If I take a fresh sheet, "sheet cut" the cards in such a way that all the star cards are oversized - and then, in retrospect, trim each and every star card down to have perfect 50/50 centering both ways and the card is still standard size - is that trimming?
What if the card was an original card, but factory cut large. If I cut that down to standard size, is that trimming? How are situations one and two different? Does it matter? Is one wrong, but not the other? Are both wrong? How is sheet cutting different than trimming - especially if in both scenarios you end up with a card that is the "proper" standard size?
~ms
<< <i> PSA is not here to determine if a card is sheet cut. They are here to determine whether the card is authentic (check) the card has met the measurements of its set (check) and give it a grade (check). PSA did their job here >>
This is not correct. As stated in the February 2005 SMR under the PSA Grading Standards page 44:
"PSA will not grade cards cut from sheets that can be obtained in a normal fashion. For example, PSA
will not grade a 1979 OPC Wayne Gretzky card cut from a sheet because that card was issued in a non-
sheet form. On the other hand, PSA will grade a 1959 Bazooka or 1961 Post Cereal Mickey Mantle because
these cards could only be obtained in one fashion - removed by hand from a box or panel.
So if the OPC Parent Rookie is a sheet cut as it appears to be it should not of been graded by PSA.
If they decided to grade this type of card then maybe the Psa label should of identified it as such.
And chances are the seller might receive a less favorable return for his ebay auction if it was stated
that the Parent was sheet cut instead of the way it is listed now.
aconte
<< <i> Having a card in a sheet is harder to keep "mint" than it is a single card. Have you tried storing a sheet? You can't just stick it in a top loader, then put it in a book and forget about it. You need a good amount of space to keep the card in a frame or something that doesn't let it stain, or let light in to bleach the colors. >>
Alas! The cards on the edges may get worn, but those beauties in the middle will remain intact!
WE?
ISEEYOU- PSA can most certaintly tell if a card was cut from a sheet
even if the dimensions are factory perfect.
<< <i>
<< <i> Having a card in a sheet is harder to keep "mint" than it is a single card. Have you tried storing a sheet? You can't just stick it in a top loader, then put it in a book and forget about it. You need a good amount of space to keep the card in a frame or something that doesn't let it stain, or let light in to bleach the colors. >>
Alas! The cards on the edges may get worn, but those beauties in the middle will remain intact!
You are very correct if you can keep the sheet flat. To keep them flat, you need a lot more space than a single card in a top loader. or screw down, sleeve, etc. A lot of people keep them rolled up from what I have seen, I don't know what the bulk of people have sheets do, but from what I have seen, they were mostly rolled together. Being in a roll can lead to creases, and/or wrinkles. Then again, it could lead to no damage, but it still is more difficult to take care of a sheet, than one card.
"PSA will not grade cards cut from sheets that can be obtained in a normal fashion. For example, PSA
will not grade a 1979 OPC Wayne Gretzky card cut from a sheet because that card was issued in a non-
sheet form. On the other hand, PSA will grade a 1959 Bazooka or 1961 Post Cereal Mickey Mantle because
these cards could only be obtained in one fashion - removed by hand from a box or panel.
So if the OPC Parent Rookie is a sheet cut as it appears to be it should not of been graded by PSA.
If they decided to grade this type of card then maybe the Psa label should of identified it as such.
And chances are the seller might receive a less favorable return for his ebay auction if it was stated
that the Parent was sheet cut instead of the way it is listed now.
ACONTE. I apologize I never saw that. Does PSA have it anywhere in their website? The thing is, if you get the card to perfect measurements using Topps' or Opeechee's method of cutting, how would PSA know? Also there is that 1% factor I mentioned. If the card is a perfect cut, then it could just have been that 1%. How do we know that Gretzky PSA wasn't perfectly cut by someone? PSA isn't into forensics. They just consist of people looking at cards trying to evaluate. You can't blame them if a few slip thru, especially if someone submits the same card 10 times. It's bound to sneak through at least once.
Greg:
If I take a fresh sheet, "sheet cut" the cards in such a way that all the star cards are oversized - and then, in retrospect, trim each and every star card down to have perfect 50/50 centering both ways and the card is still standard size - is that trimming?
What if the card was an original card, but factory cut large. If I cut that down to standard size, is that trimming? How are situations one and two different? Does it matter? Is one wrong, but not the other? Are both wrong? How is sheet cutting different than trimming - especially if in both scenarios you end up with a card that is the "proper" standard size?
~ms
MIKESCHMIDT What if Topps did this with extra sheets they had from 1952 and they cut a Mantle card that gets a grade of PSA 10. Would that be wrong, or is it only wrong if a "civilian" does it? Is it right if Topps does it? I think the main problem in sportscards is the counterfeits and people trimming ex cards to be mint and then selling them thru PRO. Once that problem goes away, I doubt it ever will, then I think focusing on sheet card cuts should be viewed, but still, when is a sheet cut bad? When it's one day after it is made and someone cuts it? When someone cut it 25 years ago, but is only selling it now? When someone cuts it 20 years from now and sells it? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. It's more of one person's preference since none of these sheet cut cards is a counterfeit.
Mike
The Beckett boards allow you to speak with others who like to invest of cards of players they can actually go to a ballgame to - be it minor or major league - and actually SEE the players, rather than having to go to the Hall of Fame or the player's burial plot.
Collecting Bowman Chrome Phillies Rookie Cards and Mike Schmidt certified auto cards.
Since Beckett doesn't even examine a card to see if it was recently cut from a sheet,
how would they ever discover if a card cut oversized from the factory had recently been trimmed down ?
Must be that free speech is more important than spotting card alterations to some grading companies.
On another point, it makes perfect sense to collect cards of past players,
for the simple reason that you can't see them anymore at the ballpark or on ESPN every night.
Anyway, Jmnesq, good luck with your "investments" ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
As for BGS, I don't use them. THey suck. I use PSA exclusively.
So, good luck on collecting cards of dead guys.
Collecting Bowman Chrome Phillies Rookie Cards and Mike Schmidt certified auto cards.
A lot of the charm of collecting cards of old guys is,
we wonder what they're doing now, or if they're even still alive.
Plus, it takes us back to a simpler era,
when athletes recognized that everything is really a team effort,
and didn't used to make a mere simple accomplishment into a glorification of themselves.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>Jmnesq; seems we agree on almost everything.
A lot of the charm of collecting cards of old guys is,
we wonder what they're doing now, or if they're even still alive.
Plus, it takes us back to a simpler era,
when athletes recognized that everything is really a team effort,
and didn't used to make a mere simple accomplishment into a glorification of themselves. >>
That was beautiful.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Greg:
If I take a fresh sheet, "sheet cut" the cards in such a way that all the star cards are oversized - and then, in retrospect, trim each and every star card down to have perfect 50/50 centering both ways and the card is still standard size - is that trimming?
What if the card was an original card, but factory cut large. If I cut that down to standard size, is that trimming? How are situations one and two different? Does it matter? Is one wrong, but not the other? Are both wrong? How is sheet cutting different than trimming - especially if in both scenarios you end up with a card that is the "proper" standard size?
~ms >>
MS - you have a point, I can't argue with that. Once you start trimming cards (whether by cutting from a sheet or trimming an oversized card to meet the size specification) you enter into a grey area. Personally, I'd prefer that a blade never touch a card (except for cards not available in pack form). However, the point that I'm trying to make is that cutting cards from a sheet is not the worst offense that can happen. I'd be more inclined to execute the scumbags trimming cards and submitting to PRO (or GEM or other dishonest "grading companies" for that matter) and selling to unsuspecting collectors. That hurts the hobby more because newer collectors tend to the be victims - and once the trimmed card is discovered, the new collector may be discouraged from collecting vintage cards, thinking that all grading companies are dishonest. Just my two cents.
Regards,
Greg M.
References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
Greg:
If I take a fresh sheet, "sheet cut" the cards in such a way that all the star cards are oversized - and then, in retrospect, trim each and every star card down to have perfect 50/50 centering both ways and the card is still standard size - is that trimming?
What if the card was an original card, but factory cut large. If I cut that down to standard size, is that trimming? How are situations one and two different? Does it matter? Is one wrong, but not the other? Are both wrong? How is sheet cutting different than trimming - especially if in both scenarios you end up with a card that is the "proper" standard size?
~ms >>
MS - you have a point, I can't argue with that. Once you start trimming cards (whether by cutting from a sheet or trimming an oversized card to meet the size specification) you enter into a grey area. Personally, I'd prefer that a blade never touch a card (except for cards not available in pack form). However, the point that I'm trying to make is that cutting cards from a sheet is not the worst offense that can happen. I'd be more inclined to execute the scumbags trimming cards and submitting to PRO (or GEM or other dishonest "grading companies" for that matter) and selling to unsuspecting collectors. That hurts the hobby more because newer collectors tend to the be victims - and once the trimmed card is discovered, the new collector may be discouraged from collecting vintage cards, thinking that all grading companies are dishonest. Just my two cents.
Regards,
Greg M.[/Q
<< <i>
MIKESCHMIDT What if Topps did this with extra sheets they had from 1952 and they cut a Mantle card that gets a grade of PSA 10. Would that be wrong, or is it only wrong if a "civilian" does it? Is it right if Topps does it? I think the main problem in sportscards is the counterfeits and people trimming ex cards to be mint and then selling them thru PRO. Once that problem goes away, I doubt it ever will, then I think focusing on sheet card cuts should be viewed, but still, when is a sheet cut bad? When it's one day after it is made and someone cuts it? When someone cut it 25 years ago, but is only selling it now? When someone cuts it 20 years from now and sells it? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. It's more of one person's preference since none of these sheet cut cards is a counterfeit.
Mike >>
Well - if you consider that PSA, SGC and GAI purport to never grade sheet-cut cards of regular Topps issues, I think it becomes less of "one person's preference" and more of a 'hobby standard'.
What if the card in question were a T-206 card? Esp. since they were issued in varying sizes - is all that matters today that the card is at least standard size?
Are you saying, in general, Iseeyou, that any card that is oversized and subsequently trimmed down to 'standard size', as long as it is not counterfeit and altered in other ways, is okay?
~ms
<< <i> I think it would just be a personal preference because I don't recall there ever being a law that you cannot take a baseball card sheet and card the cards to sell individually. No law equals no crime. >>
Except in California - there exist no laws on state books regarding altered cards...
<< <i>Iseeyou: I am sick and tired of you stating your opinions on PSA graded cut sheet cards (this thread) when you are not a stakeholder. Your opinions/comments lack sensitivity to those involved. I am one person who unknowingly purchased a number of these graded cut sheets and I’m not very happy about it. I’ve also spent a lot of money on them! I couldn’t be more thankful to the individual who started this thread. That is what freedom of speech is all about. If a similar situation happened to you, I’m sure the whole world would know about it!
That is why it is called my opinion z2z70, er whoever you are stranger. Let me see, whey are you angry, because you spent money on this card? Why because you don't feel you can make more money on this card? If you are buying cards for profit rather than enjoying them you got what you deserved and I hope you lose more and more money. Collecting cards for profit is not a good thing. And to answer your question, yes I have had people not send me cards, people send me trimmed cards, people send me sheet card cards. I don't whine about it because whining begets whining and begets nothing else. Sheet cuts are not counterfeits. Basically most pre 1990 cards are sheet cuts you fool. It just a matter of who the cutter was that seems to be bothering you. Let me know and I will buy you a box of tissues, but I think they were cut from a sheet, so you may not want them because you spent a lot of money boo hoo. I think the dollars you used to buy those cards were cut from sheets. Why don't you empty your wallet out of the window, wait the glass for the window was cut from a sheet. Oh well. just lock the door, oops, cut from a sheet of wood. Just get over yourself.
Tell me something? You haven't a clue what I have. How do you know I don't have sheet cuts? There is a certain set that I wish not to name that another person told me most likely came from sheets. PSA graded them. I still have them. I felt bad for about an hour, but realized these are real cards and kept them and have no regrets.
Next time, before you post something you are ignorant to, do your homework and for goodness sake take your prozac before you type next time. That's the problem with the world. No one knows the whole story, they just react to bits and pieces and fill in the rest.
I welcome as many sheet cut cards as there can be. It would be great to finally see some mint cards from the 1960s.
Good thing the majority of my 1960s cards came from wax as I collected them myself. By using PSA services I have always trusted their authenticity. Their mission statement is as follows:
"PSA will not grade cards cut from sheets that can be obtained in a normal fashion. For example, PSA will not grade a 1979 OPC Wayne Gretzky card cut from a sheet because that card was issued in a non-sheet form. On the other hand, PSA will grade a 1959 Bazooka or 1961 Post Cereal Mickey Mantle because these cards could only be obtained in one fashion - removed by hand from a box or panel.
So if the OPC Parent Rookie is a sheet cut as it appears to be it should not of been graded by PSA. If they decided to grade this type of card then maybe the Psa label should of identified it as such. And chances are the seller might receive a less favorable return for his ebay auction if it was stated that the Parent was sheet cut instead of the way it is listed now.
Again, I have more than one of these graded cut sheet cards and they were to be added to my collection. As a collector I may keep them. The point I am trying to make here is that questions were asked about cut sheets before purchase. Even you can figure that one out. But you’re the big expert!
Text
As for z2z70 I think it wouldn't be all that outrageous to think you are z2z70 since he was banned last week and now you pop out of nowhere as if we have spoken about this topic before. just my opinion, but then again I'm the expert.
The ethics issue arises when you ask a seller if the card was cut from a sheet. The answer should be yes or no. It allows the individual to make the choice. As you have mentioned, other people do not care if it is cut and it will retain its value. Then why do sellers not answer the question properly?
Bryan
<< <i>I would have no problem with finding out a PSA or SGC graded card in my collection came from a sheet cut. Who cares? If the cards are the same size as the others I could care less. If I found out a card of mine was trimmed it would bother me to know I have an inferior card that is smaller then the rest, a deliberate attempt to doctor a card from its natural state,I'd likely throw it out. A card in a sheet is not in its natural state and was never intended to be kept so. >>
Again - no one ever seems to answer this question:
Gmoneystyles: What happens if you had a vintage card that was issued factory-oversized and could definitively be proved to have been trimmed in the last few years - although it measures the proper size today?!
This happens - so your perspective here would be very interesting
Hockey set! Always looking to buy, trade or upgrade 1966 Topps to 1969 OPC.
Verdict: Sheet cut BAD!
<< <i>being oversized is its natural state, so any altering would be trimming. That being said, as a relative novice after four years in vintage, I read an earlier thread that caught my attention and made me think twice about sheet cut. "nearmint" brought up an interesting point when he basically said that sheet cut cards would dilute the existing vintage market with high end cards. This would certainly upset the natural order of the individual set and the vintage market as a whole. I wish I read that comment before I posted! The threads should be merged.
Verdict: Sheet cut BAD! >>
Glad you saw the light ;-)
An interesting viewpoint/analysis/case study can be performed on 1970s issue OPC baseball cards. Production quality was terrible. Centering is awesome if it is better than 70/30, and the cutting methodology was so primitive (I think it was a needle/thread based system), that 90+% of cards have at least two or three edges with significant rough cuts - and even rounded corners from the lack of blades in the production process. You take a contemporaneous OPC sheet today - cut it with a laser, a extremely sharp paper cutter device, or anything else - and you end up with your typical BVG masterpiece. Subgrades of 9.5 on centering, corners, edges and a surface grade lesser because of print dots, etc. Those sheet-cut cards are cut *so* profoundly differently than there were 25-30 years ago, that it is silly to consider them equal in any sense of the term.
I'm definitely not saying that a sheet-cut card is without value. Indeed, they can look wonderful and represent an impossible ideal. It simply is not realistic, though, and should not be compared apples to apples to a card cut with inferior technology 30 years ago
When I collect a set, I put my heart, soul, and sweat into it.
That means I not only spend serious money, but serious time as well.
If I thought that all of a sudden a bunch of sheet cut cards had started diluting
a set that I'd toiled over for years, I'd feel cheated and violated, and I'd be mad as hell !
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
EvolASp. I am not a bad guy or look for confrontations, you just came out of no where throwing punches and I responded. If we talk normally, there won't be any problems. Remember, like I said with the lack of laws on sheet cut cards, all these are opinions and discussions about preference.
As for the diluting the market, there only exists a problem if you are buying cards based on monetary value. Honestly, if the cards I liked were worthless, I would still collect a lot of them because they are old and I think they are cool toys. When you were 5 years old, did you care who else had the same toy as you as long as you had yours to play with? There are a few 1980's that are worthless that I would collect even though they are worthless, but there are just too many cards to work on the sets and it's too hard to get them because no one wants to sell them because they have little value, which is why the 1980's cards in about 50 years or so will be valuable because so many people discard them and worthless, they will eventually become less abundant.
And as for other sheet cut cards besides the ones mentioned here, I'd be willing to bet money that there are many others that are sheet cut that are undetectable. What makes those opeechee cards detectable is because most of them had rough cuts because Topps kept the better machines and cutting techniques for their Topps sets. What about the Topps baseball from the 1970's and 1980's that are sheet cut. Can you blame PSA for grading them if they look exactly alike? I couldn't blame them. Selling them to buyers telling them they are not sheet cut because you think they won't buy them is very wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with the card itself. it is authentic, it is the same size as the other cards. It just had a different daddy.
Still no one has answered my question. What if Topps took a bunch of their old, lets say 1955 Baseball they had lying around and cut them. Would that be wrong? What if they went as far as inserting them into wax. If no one asks them where they got them, is it wrong for them not to tell?
Wolfbear: I concur with your comments. My passion for collecting has taken a definite jolt.
<< <i>Since then, the cutters of these sheets have done a phenomenal job of leaving a butter-cut at the bottom and at the top. >>
100 % accurate statement