the keets definition is from Dictionary.com and is a fairly good one. what it omits is the fact that when a shill is bidding in an auction at eBay, it's done with the tacit approval of the seller and prior agreement between the two. make no mistake about it, it's a reality. the shill's purpose isn't to bid on a coin they might like and/or wouldn't mind owning. the purpose is to raise the sale price for the seller with no intention of buying the coin. it often fails when the two get a bit greedy and the price gets too high for the real bidders, but in most cases it costs the winner money.
al h.
Questions answered yes at 17o responses seems to have remained the same as the last update.
<< <i>AnthonydeFrancisci We are thinking much alike but the keets definition is much different than the statement you quoted. << I don't think shilling is a big deal if you know what the coin is worth and/or what you are willing to pay>> If a person is willing to pay the bid price it is not collusion. If no money is paid and the coin does not change hands I would change my opinion. >>
Idhair,
I think the problem in your interpretation is that when you say that "If a person is willing to pay the bid price it is not collusion" It IS.....because the "bid price" is not the real price if it has been bid up by a shill.
what IS the REAL PRICE? This, by definition, should be established by the free market. Not by someone who has artificially inflated the price with no intent of buying.
It sounds like you have an idea of what you are willing to pay if the auction goes your way. You are correct. This is not a shill. If done honestly, you are an honest bidder. But if you are not intent on buying, but are trying to help a co-conspirator inflate the price of his/her offering, then you are acting dishonestly. I am a humanist at heart, and I believe that most of us (who are not sociopathic by nature) have a good idea of what is right and what is wrong. Unfortunately, this line is often intentionally blurred and rationalized by greed.
The results of this poll not withstanding, I believe that the ethics of members of CU are far higher than those of the general eBay population and I would rather buy from someone I know here.
If you are in the Western North Carolina area, please consider visiting our coin shop:
The results of this poll not withstanding, I believe that the ethics of members of CU are far higher than those of the general eBay population and I would rather buy from someone I know here. >>
I agree. People with marginal ethics sure seem to get weeded out quick around here. Even if their roots are deep.
The results of this poll not withstanding, I believe that the ethics of members of CU are far higher than those of the general eBay population and I would rather buy from someone I know here. >>
Let's hope that is true. However, according to some of the responses we've seen in this thread it is not all that clear that forum members either know or care where the honest line lies. I mean this is THE forum right? The best and most well established collectors and dealers in the USA post and read here right? At least this is what I have been told. So, where is the moral outrage and denial of this practice? Many of the posts have been by members looking to clear their own consciences'. Not by well-respected members of the coin community seeking to condemn the practice of shill bidding.
i think some could ask for reasonable justification for shilling, but they'd be hard pressed to come up with some. as for those who feel it's OK, they are generally where they feel comfortable, under a rock right now.
my challenge to any forum member, in the face of these poll results, is to enter this thread and justify shilling------please!!!!! come and tell us why it's a legitimate practice, we want to know!!!
I do not use E-bay for many reasons including those that are the topic of this thread. It is obvious that the rules against shilling were or should have been designed to provide a fair marketplace. Conspiring to increase a price on an item for the purpose of defrauding the ultimate buyer is wrong (not sort of wrong, or marginally wrong). To say the rules apply to others but not you, your friends, your co-conspiritors or even otherwise honorable forum members is hypocritical. There are many threads about hobbies not investments, hobbiests not dealers, ethics vs greed, but....too many are about how to disadvantage someone. I have been around too long to be surprised but remain disappointed at the behavior and rationalization of mankind. Other than that ,everything is perfect.
Comments
al h.
Questions answered yes at 17o responses seems to have remained the same as the last update.
1. 94%
2. 90%
3. 80%
Great thread.
Didn't mean to side track it.
<< <i>AnthonydeFrancisci
We are thinking much alike but the keets definition is much different than the statement you quoted.
<< I don't think shilling is a big deal if you know what the coin is worth and/or what you are willing to pay>>
If a person is willing to pay the bid price it is not collusion. If no money is paid and the coin does not change hands I would change my opinion.
Idhair,
I think the problem in your interpretation is that when you say that "If a person is willing to pay the bid price it is not collusion" It IS.....because the "bid price" is not the real price if it has been bid up by a shill.
what IS the REAL PRICE? This, by definition, should be established by the free market. Not by someone who has artificially inflated the price with no intent of buying.
It sounds like you have an idea of what you are willing to pay if the auction goes your way. You are correct. This is not a shill. If done honestly, you are an honest bidder. But if you are not intent on buying, but are trying to help a co-conspirator inflate the price of his/her offering, then you are acting dishonestly. I am a humanist at heart, and I believe that most of us (who are not sociopathic by nature) have a good idea of what is right and what is wrong. Unfortunately, this line is often intentionally blurred and rationalized by greed.
<< <i>Do this mean that we be bad????? >>
The results of this poll not withstanding, I believe that the ethics of members of CU are far higher than those of the general eBay population and I would rather buy from someone I know here.
WNC Coins, LLC
1987-C Hendersonville Road
Asheville, NC 28803
wnccoins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>Do this mean that we be bad????? >>
The results of this poll not withstanding, I believe that the ethics of members of CU are far higher than those of the general eBay population and I would rather buy from someone I know here. >>
I agree. People with marginal ethics sure seem to get weeded out quick around here. Even if their roots are deep.
*******************************************************************************
marginal ethics, nice.................................
al h.
<< <i>
<< <i>Do this mean that we be bad????? >>
The results of this poll not withstanding, I believe that the ethics of members of CU are far higher than those of the general eBay population and I would rather buy from someone I know here. >>
Let's hope that is true. However, according to some of the responses we've seen in this thread it is not all that clear that forum members either know or care where the honest line lies. I mean this is THE forum right? The best and most well established collectors and dealers in the USA post and read here right? At least this is what I have been told. So, where is the moral outrage and denial of this practice? Many of the posts have been by members looking to clear their own consciences'. Not by well-respected members of the coin community seeking to condemn the practice of shill bidding.
94% said shilling is wrong.
What the L more could you ask for
i think some could ask for reasonable justification for shilling, but they'd be hard pressed to come up with some. as for those who feel it's OK, they are generally where they feel comfortable, under a rock right now.
my challenge to any forum member, in the face of these poll results, is to enter this thread and justify shilling------please!!!!! come and tell us why it's a legitimate practice, we want to know!!!
al h.
al h.
It is obvious that the rules against shilling were or should have been designed to provide a fair marketplace.
Conspiring to increase a price on an item for the purpose of defrauding the ultimate buyer is wrong (not sort of wrong, or marginally wrong).
To say the rules apply to others but not you, your friends, your co-conspiritors or even otherwise honorable forum members is hypocritical.
There are many threads about hobbies not investments, hobbiests not dealers, ethics vs greed, but....too many are about how to disadvantage someone.
I have been around too long to be surprised but remain disappointed at the behavior and rationalization of mankind.
Other than that ,everything is perfect.
Nickel & dime stuff.
Anyone ever heard of Heritage?
Ever ask yourself about those 'after auction' specials?
Oh, that's right, they were only bidding against the 'reserve'.
Never mind.