What do you think about eBay, shilling and Forum Members?? some stat's added on page two.

keets

Just make a selection that conforms to how you'd answer the three questions. Oh yeah, you can also comment if you'd like to!!

Al H.

tlhoy

As far as the last question, I think most of it is innocent shilling. You know, not to inflate the price, just a low bid to get the ball rolling. Except for some people we know.

Glenn

BigE

Is this like a Michael Moore thread or something?----------------------------------------BigE

DHeath

Al, if you have something listed and I see it, I'll happily bid what I'd be willing to pay. I won't bid more than I'll pay. Can you provide a link?

ldhair

I feel there are buddy bumpers in almost all auctions.
Never really thought this was quite fair.
In auctions advertised as absolute, I feel it is flat out wrong (not really related to coin auctions).

RYK

I will make courtesy bids on the auctions of forum members for nice items that I like but would not typically buy. IMO, bidding begets bidding, and if I can help a forum member out, I will do so. I do not use my bid to jack up another, the forum member is generally unaware of my bid (my ebay handle name is not my forum handle), and if I won the auction, I would gladly buy the item. I do not consider this is a shill (but others may do so, and it will not bother me if they do).

stman

<< <i>shilling and Forum Members?? >>



Forum members? That's OK around here. Let it be a stranger? FRY THEM!!!!!

keets

no conspiracy, tree. just a simple anonymous poll to get a feel for how the membership here feels about what goes on there by us.

hey Don

i might be able to link you in a few weeks. generally, i just put stuff up with little fanfare at the BST and hope for the best. after that, it's off to eBay.

al h.

BigE

OK, I voted, but that's it---------------------------BigE

keets

i'm rather impressed that we seem to have figured out the answers in relation to the questions!!!

al h.

AnthonydeFrancisci

Hi,

I have been lurking here for some time and this is my first post. I have learned a lot from many forum members. Unfortunately, if I am understanding this correctly, what I have learned in this thread I do not like. I find shill bidding reprehensible.....to boost a buddy's take, or for any other reason. I would like to think that one of the primary aims of this forum might be to promote honesty in the buying and selling of coins, and to promote the hobby. Let the market dictate the price, not the shiller, and his or her "informed opinion", or their association with another seller. JMO.

braddick

It's so blatant so as to be laughable.

My favorites are those coins LINKED in a "show and tell" format here where tracing the shilling is embarrassingly simple to anyone who would care to venture a peek.

BigE

Personally, I would never link anything here for sale, people are just too educated----------------------------BigE

AnthonydeFrancisci

Thanks for the tip braddick. I'll be sure to keep that in mind! I have learned a lot in this thread!

keets

One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.

a decoy who acts as an enthusiastic customer in order to stimulate the participation of others.

hey Anthony

your statement that I find shill bidding reprehensible.....to boost a buddy's take, or for any other reason is very telling when looked at with the above definitions of "shill" in mind. sadly, many don't feel it's wrong to boost a price to "help out a buddy" when at it's root, that's what shilling is all about. plain and simple, the shill has no intention of buying the item they're bidding on, the intent is to raise the price.

al h.

idocoins

<< <i>It's so blatant so as to be laughable.

Bear

Shilling will always be with us

Some will be obvious, most will be subtle.

A friendly gesture, a tiny deceit, a small indescretion.

A slight lapse of honor a breach of trust to Forum Members.

"When we practice to deceive, Oh what a web we weave"

numobri

I'm some what shocked by the vote.

I try to think people here are fair,although I do watch my back.

Millertime

I'll see items that I'm only partially interested in and throw out a couple of low ball bids just to get an idea of where the current bids are at. If I happen to win I'll pay without hesitation and I'm never bidding on a buddy's auction. Sometimes on auctions I'm really interested in I'll start low and enter a new max bid 4 or 5 times. I guess this could look like shilling but I'm not.

K6AZ

Yes, yes, and yes. And there is a pair here who while they play the game of being enemies, not only shill each other's auctions, but spam each other's auctions here on the board.

stman

WOW, look at the poll results. Please say it isn't so of our fine upstanding board members.

IrishMike

If you define shilling as bidding with no intention of buying then its wrong. I have seen items consigned to a board member then see the consignor bidding on them. Not only is that wrong but it really is stupid.

DrWho

Hate ebay, for whatever reason(s).

Shilling, no big deal. Hard to prevent. Same trouble preventing it in a true 'live body' auction. No big deal.

Forum members. The best, a bit opinionated, maybe emotional, sometimes brutal, maybe stubborn, with humor, top notch expertise. All in all a good group of Numis.

Fragmentum

Neptune

while I voted yes, yes, yes - I can't believe so many other people did also.

wowzie!

Scavenger

Shill bidding doesnt bother me, dont misunderstand- it's wrong to bid on something with no intention of buying it. But I have a maximum that I'm willing to pay for something and that's my limit.

Dog97

yes, yes, yes.
People have bragged about it on this board.
IIRC it involved a toned coin dealer that really wasn't a dealer & didn't own the coins he was selling.
The shilling board members justified it saying since they didn't list it, they could bid on any consignment they wanted to. According to them it's only shilling if they bid on their own auction but if they get somebody else to list their coins for them then it's ok.
IIRC they were trying to get $1800 for a $500 fingerprinted AT looking pos.

ziggy29

I've occasionally placed a low-ball bid on items offered by board members, at least partially as a courtesy to get the auction going. I've never done that -- and would never do that -- unless I was fully prepared to buy the coin at the price I've bid. If you have every intention to buy at the bid you've placed, it's not a shill, IMO.

However, if I'm seriously willing to bid strong money for something I really want, that will get my best and final bid -- sniped.

dthigpen

I do not practice shill bidding (ie, bidding to raise the price for the end buyer), I do, however, like RYK, throw out courtesy bids to fellow board members for exceptional coins which I normally wouldn't place in my collection but would be happy to do so should I win at the price I which I bid quite often - I have never been asked to do this nor have I ever made the seller aware that this was the case. I do this a lot when I see YNs on the boards place coins up for auction.

IrishMike

<< <i>Shill bidding doesnt bother me, dont misunderstand- it's wrong to bid on something with no intention of buying it. But I have a maximum that I'm willing to pay for something and that's my limit. >>



Scavenger if you put a bid in on a coin at $110.00 and are willing to pay that you've made that decision and let us suppose that you win it. How would you feel that your bid originally showed up at $50 with your max of $110 and you discovered it was bid up by a shill to your max? Instead of paying $50 you ended up lining the sellers pockets at $110. Would that not bother you, even a bit?

Dog97

IrishMike ignorance is bliss.

dorkkarl

in general, i am not against shill bidding, IF the rules of the auction allow it. but i hate shill bidding on ebay because they specifically disallow it.

of course, ebay USED to allow it, & in fact almost encourage it back in their early days

K S

AnthonydeFrancisci

Thanks for that definition keets.

I for one, have become much more cynical in my assessment of auctions. Because of my suspicion, I look for indications that a bidder with a very limited bid history has bid on a seller's item on more than one occasion without winning. Also, I have seen bidders (shills?) on Ebay bid against their own bids up to 3 or 4 times (with no intervening bids and plenty of time until close) in an auction, in an apparent attmpt to increase the bid in anticipation of the final snipe. It is becoming obvious to me that this is a standard practice. However, it is wrong.

Are there any other tell tale signs of a shill bid auction that one should look for?

keets

well, as stman said----WOW, look at the poll results. after 137 votes and things slowing a bit, let's look at what we have:

1. Is "shilling" or "shill bidding" wrong?? apparently we are in almost complete agreement on this---94% who answered the question feel it is indeed wrong.

2. Do you think "shilling" or "shill bidding" is common at eBay?? with 89% answering yes, we apparently feel it's common at eBay. at least 9 out of 10, that is!! who's the oddball?

3. Do you think Forum Members engage in "shilling" or "shill bidding" on each other's auctions?? this is the surprise for me with with an 80% affirmative answer!!!! imagine that, 8 out of 10 at this forum think other members engage in an unethical practice at eBay, in effect defrauding us all.

i'm left wondering who everyone thinks the offenders are. feel free to PM so i can add your input to my already growing list of members to watch.

al h.

ER

yes, yes, yes. Nothing surprises me.

IrishMike

<< <i>well, as stman said----WOW, look at the poll results. after 137 votes and things slowing a bit, let's look at what we have:

1. Is "shilling" or "shill bidding" wrong?? apparently we are in almost complete agreement on this---94% who answered the question feel it is indeed wrong.

2. Do you think "shilling" or "shill bidding" is common at eBay?? with 89% answering yes, we apparently feel it's common at eBay. at least 9 out of 10, that is!! who's the oddball?

3. Do you think Forum Members engage in "shilling" or "shill bidding" on each other's auctions?? this is the surprise for me with with an 80% affirmative answer!!!! imagine that, 8 out of 10 at this forum think other members engage in an unethical practice at eBay, in effect defrauding us all.

i'm left wondering who everyone thinks the offenders are. feel free to PM so i can add your input to my already growing list of members to watch.

al h. >>



keets this is why I said it is stupid, sooner or later no matter who you are you will be found out. Is a few more bucks worth a hit to your reputation. If you need a price then just list it with a reserve.

stman

Quote from stman before the poll results.



<< <i>

<< <i>shilling and Forum Members?? >>



Forum members? That's OK around here. Let it be a stranger? FRY THEM!!!!! >>

K6AZ

<< <i>Quote from stman before the poll results.



<< <i>

<< <i>shilling and Forum Members?? >>



Forum members? That's OK around here. Let it be a stranger? FRY THEM!!!!! >>

>>



Now you know that's the way it works around here stman. I remember one time a board member started a thread tearing up some seller for keyword spamming. When I caught a board member keyword spamming, this same individual complained about me starting the thread. If you're a board member, it's OK to shill, spam, and charge outrageous "restocking" fees.

relayer

Name names !!!

K6AZ

<< <i>Name names !!! >>



Why, so you can sit back and watch the fur fly? I've had enough confrontations here lately.

stephunter

I just bid what I want to buy the coin for. If I get it great, if not there will be another. As for selling on ebay most of the time I have $1.00 start no reserve and do not shill. Once in a while I list a coin for a higher minimum. I also bid on Teletrade and shilling is how sellers set their reserve, so once again I bid my maximum amount. I don't think shilling is a big deal if you know what the coin is worth and/or what you are willing to pay.

gemtone65

First of all, it is not a question of who we "think" might engage in shill bidding, rather, it is who is almost certainly doing it. Second, my sense is that such bidding tactics really would need to be practiced on a fairly regular basis with intent to defraud, as opposed to, say, just jacking up interest in the sale early on. Because, if all members who engaged in shill bidding were named, 1) the list probably would be quite long, 2) you would still miss the most clever practitioners, 3) you would unfairly mix different sorts and frequencies of shill bidding, and 4) you likely would be quite surprised at who made the list.

Bear

Do this mean that we be bad?????

Fairlaneman

<< <i>Now you know that's the way it works around here stman. I remember one time a board member started a thread tearing up some seller for keyword spamming. When I caught a board member keyword spamming, this same individual complained about me starting the thread. If you're a board member, it's OK to shill, spam, and charge outrageous "restocking" fees. >>



Says Who ? His buddies or the forum on the whole ?

"Name names". Will not but also will not bid on the persons auctions even if the coin is wanted. ( Hint...its a forum HERO )

The Circus continues without any interruptions.

Ken

keets

no Abe, what it means is that some are unethical hypocrites.

al h.

K6AZ

<< <i>

<< <i>Now you know that's the way it works around here stman. I remember one time a board member started a thread tearing up some seller for keyword spamming. When I caught a board member keyword spamming, this same individual complained about me starting the thread. If you're a board member, it's OK to shill, spam, and charge outrageous "restocking" fees. >>



Says Who ? His buddies or the forum on the whole ?

"Name names". Will not but also will not bid on the persons auctions even if the coin is wanted. ( Hint...its a forum HERO )

The Circus continues without any interruptions.

Ken >>



You got that right. And some of these guys use alt IDs masquarading as "collectors" to show up and support some of the outrageous activities that go on.

ksteelheader

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Now you know that's the way it works around here stman. I remember one time a board member started a thread tearing up some seller for keyword spamming. When I caught a board member keyword spamming, this same individual complained about me starting the thread. If you're a board member, it's OK to shill, spam, and charge outrageous "restocking" fees. >>



Says Who ? His buddies or the forum on the whole ?

"Name names". Will not but also will not bid on the persons auctions even if the coin is wanted. ( Hint...its a forum HERO )

The Circus continues without any interruptions.

Ken >>



You got that right. And some of these guys use alt IDs masquarading as "collectors" to show up and support some of the outrageous activities that go on. >>




Who'd a thunk it???

AnthonydeFrancisci

<< <i> I don't think shilling is a big deal if you know what the coin is worth and/or what you are willing to pay. >>



This is exactly the problem. Why have an "auction" at all? Sell the coin through another venue so that you can try to get the price that you think it is worth. If it is worth that, then sell it for that. Shilling is collusion plain and simple, and it is as bad as price fixing because you are not letting the market dictate the price. The process has been subverted.

Frankly, I am very surprised at the sentiment I see expressed in this thread. Also, as a novice coin collector, I am turned off by it, and think that mabe the "shill dealers" should keep the "hobby" to themselves, since they don't seem to wan't to play fair.

ldhair

<< <i>

<< <i> I don't think shilling is a big deal if you know what the coin is worth and/or what you are willing to pay. >>



This is exactly the problem. Why have an "auction" at all? Sell the coin through another venue so that you can try to get the price that you think it is worth. If it is worth that, then sell it for that. Shilling is collusion plain and simple, and it is as bad as price fixing because you are not letting the market dictate the price. The process has been subverted.

Frankly, I am very surprised at the sentiment I see expressed in this thread. Also, as a novice coin collector, I am turned off by it, and think that mabe the "shill dealers" should keep the "hobby" to themselves, since they don't seem to wan't to play fair. >>


I just don't see it that way.
If I see an item that is bid really low and I'm willing to buy it at a price I bid, why is my bid not as good as yours?
If I can buy it for the price I bid, I will.
Some of what is being discussed here is not shilling in the true meaning of the word.
If you are not willing to pay the price you are bidding, it's shilling.
It makes no difference if I know the seller. My money is as good as anyones in an auction.

AnthonydeFrancisci

Semantics my friend, semantics. You are absolved. Obviously, if you intend to get the coin at the price you bid, and that is your highest, then you are not a shiller. I think we all know what we are talking about when we are defining a shill bidder.

Here is a good definition related earlier in this thread by keets.......


"One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.
a decoy who acts as an enthusiastic customer in order to stimulate the participation of others".

ldhair

AnthonydeFrancisci
We are thinking much alike but the keets definition is much different than the statement you quoted.
<< I don't think shilling is a big deal if you know what the coin is worth and/or what you are willing to pay>>
If a person is willing to pay the bid price it is not collusion.
If no money is paid and the coin does not change hands I would change my opinion.