PSA centering standards for '84 Fleer and similiar cards?

Brian48

I was just wondering, I have a GAI graded 84 Clemens that's a real beaut. I was thinking of crossing it over to PSA for a 10, however I'm concerned about what the point of reference PSA is using for 84 Fleer's and similiar cards where "out lying text" is part of the design.

According to the published standands, GAI seems to be more picky regarding centering (w/BGS even more stricter). The problem with the 84 Fleers is that there seems to be some inconsistency in regards to what area of the card is used to determine centering. I'm refering to the top and bottom borders. In this screenshot, the GAI T/B seems to begin with the top blue border and end with the word "Pitcher" at the bottom of the card, which seems to make sense to me. The PSA card seems to ignore the word "Pitcher" and uses the bottom of the blue border to determine the centering. I don't have another PSA graded 84 Fleer to compare it to, but a search of eBay for similiar PSA grades from this set seem to lean towards my assumptions. Can anyone shed some light or opinion on this? This does not appear to be isolated to just 1984 Fleers from what I can tell.

Click here for pic. The slabs are in a plastic bag, but you can still make out the centering of cards.

boggs301012

I would look at the registry and compare. 84 set and or player sets/ I would have pics of mine up but my scanner sucks...thanks LEXM

JAmes

sagard

In my opinion the PSA card is the one with the correct centering. The PSA 9 card has the outlying text of "PITCHER" well centered between the bottom border and the blue bar. The GAI looks OC top to bottom to me, but you are correct about reference points.

Stone193

Brian
You pose a great question! Without thinking about it, I would measure the white on the top against the white on the bottom just beyond the word pitcher - so I think your card has better centering. So, this is where the concession comes in - what does PSA say - do we just measure all the white area top and bottom and disregard the lettering or include the lettering in the centering.

Personally, my eye goes to the border beyond pitcher and the total white area above to view the centering since in most cases we consider centering using the lettering as the start point.

your friend
Mike

dontippet

I disagree. The centering of the word pitcher between the edge of the card and the blue line is immaterial. I believe that the GAI card has much better centering. On the PSA card, the white border on the top is way too wide.

Don

Brian48

This is very confusing and is a cause of concern for me since I really don't want to go through the effort of doing a crossover if the standards are that inconsistent with PSA. Here's what I mean.

1984 Fleer Cal Ripken = PSA 10 (disregards text)


1984 Fleer Wade Boggs = PSA 10 (takes text into consideration)


For a BGS reference:

1984 Fleer Roger Clemens = BGS 9.5



Here's a better shot of my GAI 9.5

Stone193

<< <i>I disagree. The centering of the word pitcher between the edge of the card and the blue line is immaterial. I believe that the GAI card has much better centering. On the PSA card, the white border on the top is way too wide.
Don >>


Don
I agree - I think the GAI card has better eye appeal but I don't hate the PSA card.

your friend
Mike

sagard

<< <i>I disagree. The centering of the word pitcher between the edge of the card and the blue line is immaterial. I believe that the GAI card has much better centering. On the PSA card, the white border on the top is way too wide.

Don >>



I feel the same way about the GAI card's bottom border.

Never is it more important to buy what you like.

Stone193

Brian
The two PSA cards exhibit both examples of centering - with that in mind, I think your card is within the 10 standard of PSA

your friend
Mike

bobsbbcards

The one I like best is the BGS 9.5 Clemens. It's kind of in the middle of the two extremes--white area on the bottom is approximately 60% of the total vertical white area (ignoring "PITCHER"). Seems more pleasing to my eye than the original GAI or PSA. My second choice would be the PSA where "PITCHER" is completely ignored.

Stone193

Bob
Tell me, if I'm wrong - based on the way we look at cards - doesn't your eye automatically look at the white border that is beyond the lettering in most cases?

your friend
Mike

Brian48

I dunno know. Maybe I'm just being anal retentive, but being the stickler I am for written standards, this just doesn't seem right to me. As I mentioned, this doesn't appear isolated to just 1984 Fleers. Note the red "FLEER".

Example of a PSA 10 with the text ignored.


This one takes the text into consideration.


BGS seems guilty of this too. Although this cards is a BGS 9, the centering sub-grade is a 9.5.

The text near the top of the border appears to be ignored.


EDIT: I just changed the first pic to a better example.

phreakydancin

Example of the text being included in the centering:

JERO

Here is my solution to this dilemma. get a straight edge and line it up with the print on the card closest to the card edge (including text) then do the same on the opposite side. This is true centering in my opinion. Thus the GAI example is correct to me as well. Obviousley with the examples above, not everyone at PSA (and don't forget the backup grader to verify and agree with the first graders opinion) understands this consistantly. Excellent topic and pics!!

JERO

Brian48

I guess this leads to another question as to how many cards may have been turned down a 10 grade because of one grader's preference over the other. For the really high dollar cards, this can become a real hit and miss gamble. A PSA 10 can be 2-3 times the selling price of a PSA 9.

metsfan

A PSA rep told me all cards are based on there specs. If they don't have a spec sheet from the company,then they can't grade them. So,you can't compare centering on 1983 Fleer vs. 1984 Fleer without knowing the specs.

Brian48

We're not. We're comparing 84 vs 84, 83 vs 83, etc.. That's where the inconsistencies are in question. You don't need to know the specs when there's an obvious, visible difference like this within the same set design.

rw2win

Was anything ever decided on this issue? Border from the blue or border from the writing?
HELP!