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Football HOF rookies set

gregm13gregm13 Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭
in PSA Set Registry Forum
I recently registered a Football HOF rookie set and have a question that I'd like feedback on. Why is Jim Kelly's rookie card listed as his 1987 Topps card? Shouldn't his rookie card be from the 1984 USFL set? This question will be relevant when Steve Young and Reggie White are inducted into the HOF - and it seems their 1986 Topps cards will be included in the HOF rookies set. I'm sure this issue has been discussed before but I'm new to the set and would like to hear from other members.

Regards,

Greg M.
Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!

References:
Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
E-Bay id: greg_n_meg

Comments

  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,582 ✭✭✭✭
    Greg,

    I agree with you 100%. The precedent has been set in that this set should include a player's best rookie card, and the '84 USFL Kelly, Young and White are definitely more desirable and valuable than their first Topps cards. I'd like to see it changed, but I didn't want to rock the boat, so I didn't pursue it. I successfully lobbied to have the Don Maynard card in the All-Time WR's set changed from Topps to Fleer, which it should have been all along, and some were upset.

    Andy

    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • SouthsiderSouthsider Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭
    I wasn't part of the original set composition, but I believe the idea was that USFL cards were considered not mainstream, akin to regional sets.
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,582 ✭✭✭✭
    I think USFL cards are on par with baseball XRC's that you would find in a Traded Set.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • FuzzFuzz Posts: 903
    I also have stayed away from this set so far but would like to voice an opinion.
    In this case, the USFL may represent the same manufacturer but not even the same league. The precedent to me if the USFL cards were used would be to use the minor league cards issued for the player (like the Modesto A's McGuire). I think the rookie card should be the first card (traded or not) that represents them in the league that they make the HOF in.
    Fuzz
    Wanted: Bell Brands FB and BB, Chiefs regionals especially those ugly milk cards, Coke caps, Topps and Fleer inserts and test issues from the 60's. 1981 FB Rack pack w/ Jan Stenerud on top.
  • sixdartsixdart Posts: 821 ✭✭
    The main reason is ...

    Cards for this set are for their NFL HOF RCs. Even though some USFL & CFL RCs are their true RCs, they represent USFL & CFL playing years. Unfortunately, the USFL & CFL are not part of the National Football League Hall of Fame. Therefore, cards for Kelly, Young, White and Moon will be their FTC (First Topps Card), not their 1st card. Those were released as officially licensed NFL products.

    The exception to the rule is for the All-Time Greatest position sets - which can combine the USFL and NFL years. They are not qualified by the requirements of the NFL HOF.

  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    Sixdart nailed it. As one of the sets originators, I can remember a very long discussion concerning the USFL cards. But in the end, it was decided that only mainstream NFL RCs would be used. If you use the USFL, dont you also have to use cards like 1961 Lake to Lake Packers? Line had to be drawn somewhere...

    Luckily, if you still want to collect the USFL cards (like I do) you can add them to the All-Time Greats sets instead of the HOF set...

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • DavemriDavemri Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭
    I would be very happy with the change to USFL cards. It seems most people would agree with me.

    Also, I thought it was the pro football hall of fame. It is not the NFL HOF only. Maybe I'm wrong. Arn't there players from the AFL in the Hall who didn't play in the NFL?? I could be wrong.

    dave

    FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
    image
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    The only bad thing about changing to USFL cards would be opening the pandora box it would create. Where would we draw the line? Would we use college cards when players from the 90's start making the HOF? CFL card for Moon? What about the 1961 Packers Lake-to-Lake..Does that become Hank Jordan's RC?

    While I would prefer having the USFL cards in the set because they are the most valuable, I also want to protect the integrity of the set. Unfortunately, that means if we exclude one, we must exclude all non-mainstream cards. The was the concensus a couple of years back when we first requested the set. I dont think it was ever unanimous, but it was the majority...PSA (BJ and crew) had some say in that as well...

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,582 ✭✭✭✭
    The USFL sets were basically mainstream. Unlike many CFL (JOGO) and other oddball issues, these were produced in fairly large numbers. Heck, they were made by Topps. If you want the Young, White or Kelly rookie, do you run out and buy his Topps card? Of course not. I happen to have the only '81 JOGO Moon PSA 9, but I wouldn't want that card to be included in the set. It's too obscure. The USFL cards, though, are not. I'm all for their inclusion.

    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • DavemriDavemri Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭
    image

    Is this the moon you have??

    FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
    image
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,582 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, that is the Moon I have. It's the only 9 and the only one (of dozens) I've ever seen centered. Basically 50/50 too. I have cards that are more valuable, but it's definitely one of my favorites. I searched a long time for it.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • DavemriDavemri Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭
    Thats a cool card. I didn't even know this card existed. I will have to add that one to my list. any idea what a psa 8 would go for??


    FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
    image
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,582 ✭✭✭✭
    I've never seen an 8, so I'm not sure. I got the 9 for a little less than $400 if you want to use that as a benchmark. My guess would be that an 8 would probably go in the $100 range.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • sixdartsixdart Posts: 821 ✭✭


    << <i>... Also, I thought it was the pro football hall of fame. It is not the NFL HOF only. Maybe I'm wrong. Arn't there players from the AFL in the Hall who didn't play in the NFL?? I could be wrong. ...

    - Dave >>

    Dave, you are correct. According to their web site ...

    Any fan may nominate any qualified person who has been connected with pro football in any capacity simply by writing to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The only restriction is that a player must have been retired at least five years before he can be considered. For example, a candidate for the 2005 class must have concluded his career not later than the 1999 season.

    FYI -

    Class of 2005 Finalists

    Thanks,

    Marcus
  • DavemriDavemri Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭
    That's what I thought. That makes the rationale you listed earlier irrelevent, correct?

    When Rod "he hate me" smart makes the hall of fame, we shoul include his XFL rookie!! image

    dave

    FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
    image
  • DavemriDavemri Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The only bad thing about changing to USFL cards would be opening the pandora box it would create. Where would we draw the line? Would we use college cards when players from the 90's start making the HOF? CFL card for Moon? What about the 1961 Packers Lake-to-Lake..Does that become Hank Jordan's RC? >>



    Jason, A couple things to think about

    1. We would not use college cards because they are not considered professional players while in school.
    2. I would love to use the CFL moon RC.
    3. Jordans RC is 61 topps. Since both are 61, i dont think anyone would have a problem with using to topps card. I dont believe the lake to lake were issued nationally but I could be wrong.

    dave

    FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
    image
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,582 ✭✭✭✭
    Dave,

    If you feel strongly enough about this, and it seems that you do, e-mail PSA and ask if the change from Topps RCs to USFL XRCs can be made. They'll poll the current participants of the NFL rookie HOF registry set and if the majority votes for a change (I know I would) it will be made.

    Andy
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • DavemriDavemri Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭
    I dont want to cause problems, I just want to give my opinion. I would have to see agreement here before requesting a change.


    FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
    image
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    I'll throw my vote in the USFL card ring...But it definitely worries me when it comes to future additions. As long as PSA polls the other registrants, Im good with whatever decision is made. I'm not all that sure they WILL send a poll out...They don't always do it, as surmised last week when Marvin Harrisons SP RC was added to the All-Time WR set without a poll being sent. At least I didnt see one..

    Who will decide Peyton Manning's RC to be included? The first person to send an e-mail and request Bowman's Best? Makes it hard to collect the cards of guys who arent in yet if I dont know ahead of time which card will be used. If there are guidelines in place, then I know without asking or guessing...

    Dave, the USFL was a professional league???lol..Some may argue that...lol

    Jason

    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • shagrotn77shagrotn77 Posts: 5,582 ✭✭✭✭
    I wound up sending an e-mail to PSA to see if we can vote on including USFL cards in the set. We'll see what happens.
    "My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
  • NickMNickM Posts: 4,895 ✭✭✭
    There is no reason why the most desirable rookie for players of any given year from 1990 on could not be decided as a standardized matter for the set, regardless of the player.

    Looking at some recent years, for 1998 I would choose SP Authentic, for 1999 I would choose SPx, for 2000 I would choose Playoff Contenders, and for 2001 I would choose SPx.

    Nick
    image
    Reap the whirlwind.

    Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
  • AlanAllenAlanAllen Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭
    That's correct, it's the Pro Football Hall of Fame. They are associated with the NFL, but there are players inducted who never played a down in the NFL (Billy Shaw comes to mind).

    I agree that oddball cards should not be included as RCs, because The Hobby has deemed that only mainstream cards can be considered rookie cards. The question is, are the USFL sets mainstream or oddball?

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: PSA needs to establish and strictly comply with rules about which cards to include in player sets, key card sets, and HOF sets.

    Joe
    No such details will spoil my plans...
  • NickMNickM Posts: 4,895 ✭✭✭
    Do I remember correctly that the 1984 and 1985 USFL sets were only available as complete sets?

    If so, this is a powerful argument IMO against their inclusion for the HOF rookie cards registry set.

    Nick
    image
    Reap the whirlwind.

    Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
  • AlanAllenAlanAllen Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭
    Correct, they were only issued as boxed complete sets.

    Joe
    No such details will spoil my plans...
  • phreakydancinphreakydancin Posts: 1,691 ✭✭


    << <i>Correct, they were only issued as boxed complete sets. >>

    I think the XRC label would apply, then. The USFL could be considered a rival major football league, but if cards were not issued in wax packs, then they cannot be considered true RCs.

    O-Pee-Chee WHA cards from the 70s are considered Rookies, but they were issued in wax packs, and the WHA is considered a major league.

    CFL cards couldn't possibly count as rookie cards, as the CFL is not a major league; more like Triple-A in baseball terms.
  • sixdartsixdart Posts: 821 ✭✭
    CFL cards are out of the question at this point, although I wish I had the CFL Moon RC. They weren't distributed in the US and early versions were far too limited (i.e. CFL Warren Moon RC - 500 made?) and affect the overall collecting ability PSA seems to desire.

    Joe, you bring up a good point on popularity in certain modern RCs, but then that raises the serial #'d card issue. PSA's policy seems to disregard these cards and consider some inserts (vs. base cards)?

    Perhaps a master HOF RC set is in order. I would go for that. It could contain both versions of the same year and manufacturer (i.e. '52 Bowman, '48 Leaf & Bowman, etc.) and/or resolve the dual league RC issue (i.e. Reggie White '84 USFL & '86 Topps).
  • gregm13gregm13 Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭
    I think the USFL cards should be included as the rookie cards of Reggie White, Steve Young and Jim Kelly because they are the most desirable and were mainstream enough (i.e. produced by Topps) to be considered a regular issue. The USFL was a national league (vs. regional) and many former USFL players ended up in the NFL. An interesting point was brought up regarding XFL cards - if anyone who started in the league would end up in the HOF (however doubtful).

    Regards,

    Greg M.
    Collecting vintage auto'd fb cards and Dan Marino cards!!

    References:
    Onlychild, Ahmanfan, fabfrank, wufdude, jradke, Reese, Jasp, thenavarro
    E-Bay id: greg_n_meg
  • JasP24JasP24 Posts: 4,645 ✭✭✭
    Its going to get ugly when Guys like Peyton Manning or Mike Vick or Big Ben get inducted...Don't bother buying their RCs now because we probably wont know which card is being added until its added.

    I THOUGHT that PSA established guidlines when we first uploaded the set. Part of that was No USFL(mainstream only) and No serial numbered cards(inserts) like SP Authentic. But as always, as time passes, things can and will change. We don't have the guidlines in writing so nothing is set in stone.

    I think the MASTER set idea is a good one. But wouldn't that mean that ALL of Peyton's 1998 RC's would be included on that list????Thats ALOT of RC's for just one player...Probably even more RC's for newer players like Vick and Big Ben.

    All I know is that there better be a poll before they start deleting cards from the HOF set...lol

    Jason
    I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit,
    according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
  • shouldabeena10shouldabeena10 Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭
    Looks like it's time to brush the dust off all of my 1976 Crane Disc Walter Payton RC's ... now that the master sets coming. ;-)

    I'll throw my hat in the ring for USFL cards to be included in the regular HOF RC set too. I agree that the line needs to be drawn somewhere, and I think this is a pretty good place to drawn it. The USFL cards, even though they were issued as a complete set, were fairly mainstream and include way too many great players to be over looked (in my opinion). I hope PSA will consider a vote of all of the registry guys to come to a fair decision.

    Mike
    "Vintage Football Cards" A private Facebook Group of 4000 members, for vintage football card trading, sales & auctions. https://facebook.com/groups/vintagefootball/
  • sixdartsixdart Posts: 821 ✭✭


    << <i>But wouldn't that mean that ALL of Peyton's 1998 RC's would be included on that list????Thats ALOT of RC's for just one player...Probably even more RC's for newer players like Vick and Big Ben. >>



    - Jason

    No ... big NO! I think that a case could be made for up to ( 2 ) modern RC cards. I was referring to cards pre-1989. RC cards after this date would have to be limited to one - or the ( 2 ) mentioned. Even Barry Sanders, Brett Favre and Emmitt Smith have multiple RCs, fortunately there's a clear stand out as to their primary RC. Once you get beyond 1993 it really gets crazy!
  • sixdartsixdart Posts: 821 ✭✭
    I just didn't think it was fair to exclude cards like the 1948 Leaf "Bulldog" Turner over the 1948 Bowman "Bulldog" Turner soley because it was an SP (short print) edition, and others such as the 1952 Bowman Small & Large, early '60s Topps vs. Fleer and USFL vs. FTC (First Topps Card) cards.
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