Buyer of altered Mantle wins in court

ajw

This is nice to see

Stone193

ajw
Thanx for the post - very interesting - my next question will be - how does one collect from the guy? Unless the courts can "take" the money from him?

your friend
Mike

ajw

<< <i>ajw
Thanx for the post - very interesting - my next question will be - how does one collect from the guy? Unless the courts can "take" the money from him?

your friend
Mike >>



Courts are pretty good at that. They normally say something like, "maybe you should pay him or we'll throw you in jail."

jrdolan

Today, only $17,000 for a "mint condition" 1952 Topps Mantle would be a tip-off from the start that something is fishy. Also, these days the natural question that occurs to a careful buyer is "Why is this card not graded?" Not so in 1995, I guess. I was out of the hobby at that time.

1420sports

I was at a SportsFest show in '99, and I asked a dealer named Levi if he had a 52 Topps Snider.
He asked if I wanted one raw or graded.

I was baffled.

MajorDanby

why do these things always happen in California? Went to a SF sports card show a few months ago...and the overpriced, shady BS in that room was disgusting.

5thScaleRacer

<< <i>ajw
Thanx for the post - very interesting - my next question will be - how does one collect from the guy? Unless the courts can "take" the money from him?

your friend
Mike >>



If the defendant refuses to pay, the court can order his employer to garnish his wages to satisfy the judgment.

If the defendant is self employed, the court can garnish his profits with the help from his bank.

ajmoeller81

<< <i>ajw
Thanx for the post - very interesting - my next question will be - how does one collect from the guy? Unless the courts can "take" the money from him?

your friend
Mike >>



They can also reposses his ownings and auction them off in order to pay the plaintiff.

Billa

This is absolutely the best thing to have happened to us collectors. It protects us from the dishonest.

So what happens when you have a graded card — by any company — and later find out that the 8 you have is found to be trimmed?

Can you go after the company which did the grading? My answer is: I think so. You relied upon them for an expert opinion, and as a result, you could have spent thousands to purchase a card and had it verified by the company before spending that money.

What do you think?

helionaut

I find it interesting that they said that the grading service "declared it worthless because it had been discolored and doctored." I don't know of any grading services that place values on things. A tremendous loss of value could be imputed from such a finding, but I think the reporter got his facts a little fuzzy there.

Assuming the dealer wasn't the perpetrator of the fraud, I must say that's gotta suck for the dealer Strek. To have someone come back years later and say that a third party believes the card is fake, give me my $17K back, that's tough to swallow. I'm kind of surprised at that. I'm also surprised that he wasn't able to muster a defense. I would imagine we'll be seeing more of this sort of thing in the future with all sorts of collectibles as prices continue to be crazy for graded vs. raw.

Billa

You know, Helionaut, you make some good points here. The dealer, however, had to know that this card was not legit. $17,000 for a mint Mantle? The dealer, I'm sure, breathed a tremendous sigh of relief when he got the money. And, if this was one doctored card, how many others did he pass off. People have to be held accountable for their mistakes, especially intentional mistakes. Never, and I mean never, do I tell a customer he is not right in my business. I always make good and with a smile on my face. On an earlier post I told how I got nailed on a trimmed '58 Mantle. Did Ipass the card off? No, I still have it and enjoy it (yea, right?) for the $850 lesson I learned in getting ripped off by dealers. If I could remember the name of the Florida dealer who nailed me, I certainly would be going after him.

duner

i'm no expert, but if this is just a civil case all he needs to do is file for bankruptcy and would be able to just write off the debt. if the guy claims not to have the money they can't just throw him in jail. hell, o.j. still flaunts the fact he'll never pay any of the money he owes nicole brown's relatives.

koby

Filing bankruptcy just to discharge $17K debt?


I think this court decision is very good for the consumer. And of course very bad for slimy card dealers who try to rip off their customers every chance they get.

5thScaleRacer

<< <i>i'm no expert, but if this is just a civil case all he needs to do is file for bankruptcy and would be able to just write off the debt. if the guy claims not to have the money they can't just throw him in jail. hell, o.j. still flaunts the fact he'll never pay any of the money he owes nicole brown's relatives. >>



OJ is still flauting his "riches" because in Florida, one's "personal home" cannot be touched by the courts to satisfy a court judgment. That's the exact reason OJ moved to Florida. He knew that his mansion could never be touched.

OJ is just lucky that he does not have to work to support himself. If OJ had to work for an income, you can bet your behind that the court would garnish part of his wages/profits to pay off the debt.

Furthermore, filing for personal bankruptcy simply to avoid a court judgment will not work. Now if this card dealer set up his business as a LLC or Corp, then corporate bankruptcy may help. The article doesn't say if this law suit was against the card dealer personally, or a LLC/Corp.

yankeeno7

1420Sports,
That dealer "Levi" was more than Levi Bleem from 707 Sportscards. He's been a powerplayer for a long time. I'm sure he has loads of just about any 52 Topps you are looking for...he has incredible stuff and an incredible amount of it. He may be a bit pricey but he is very reputable and has been in business for a long, long time.

DeutscherGeist

This is a very good ruling. Ethically, the guy deserves a refund. Morally, the guy deserves a refund. It was within the statute of limitations, so he was within his right. A card is not like buying car. You store a card and may not notice its altered unless years later when you get it graded or look at it again. A car is driven the first day and problems can be noticed within the first month and reported (most defects anyway--perhaps not bodywork).

The only thing I am wondering about is if that's the same Mantle card that had been sold to the customer. I would think there was room for some switching going on. That issue seems not to have been disputed. The only thing the dealer argued was that 2 years is a long time to demand a refund on card. I don't think two years is too long considering the card was out of sight for so long.

Billa

Well, the bottom line is this, no matter how you look at it: as a business, investment, hobby, relaxation, entertainment, pasttime, whatever — when we spend dollars for a card, taking a risk as to whether those dollars are well spent, it is now nice to see that the law is in our corner . . . there is no more room for scumbag dealers or people who think they can rip us off just because no one will check . . . we are all becoming much to wise to be duped anymore.

My favorite bumper sticker said this: "Guns don't kill, I do!" The point is, it's got to be like this, unshady people in our card sector have to be held accountable by all of us.