Did anyone explain this to dorkkarl?

relayer

It's more than just a piece of plastic

Tonekiller

dorkkarl

i'll be right back....

K S

morgannut2

I guess everyone finally agrees that professional grading is an improvement (except my coins stay sooo long in Ca.)

tlhoy

K6AZ

<< <i>Permanence: the plastic slab, essentially inert and basically indestructible >>



Yeah? Tell this to the post office.

dorkkarl

<< <i>One of the many innovations that the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) brought to third-party certification back in 1986 was the use of a hard-plastic case to encapsulate individual coins. This "slab" (as it became known) is made of a specially-formed, hard acrylic plastic that resists breakage and protects the coin within. In a sense, the slab is a visible, tangible force field that keeps both the coin and the customer safe and secure. But, as you'll soon find out, it's more than just a piece of plastic.

Now that PCGS has been serving the numismatic community for almost two decades, it's easy to forget the Wild West mentality of previous years, when grading was extremely subjective and inconsistent, and the favorite catchphrase was "caveat emptor" ("buyer beware"). Coin grading has been an important part of American collecting since the hobby first began in the early 1800's. However, grading standards were loosely defined and loosely applied. Even when two people could agree on a grade, there was no way to transfer it to a third party without starting the whole process over. In other words, no one would believe the grade of a coin until they verified it for themselves. >>

ok, let's start here.

what, exactly, is so horrible about someone "verifying a grade for himself", to paraphrase? right off the bat, i'm very suspicious of the premise of this discussion. it's as if a poor, stupid little groveling collectors can't possibly know how to look at a coin & verify that HE LIKES IT for himself. only the big, all-knowing plastic co. may have that privilege.



<< <i>The plastic slab was an elegant step in the evolution of grading, offering the following benefits: >>

elegant??? c'mon now, can ANYONE honestly say that those chunks of plastic are ELEGANT??? a scoop dress is elegant. a gull-wing mercedes is elegant! a hummingbird is elegant, but a chunk of nameless, faceless, anonymous piece of plastic ELEGANT??? har-har!



<< <i>Permanence: the plastic slab, essentially inert and basically indestructible, offers a near-perfect solution for long-term storage. Assuming the slab is never opened, the grade and the coin are forever linked together. >>

oh yeah, there's no such thing as "gradeflation". you see, boys & girls, grading standards never change, nor do preferences change over time. that's why every 1804 silver dollar that's ever been slabed has the exact same grade today that it did 20 years ago. OOPS!



<< <i>Safety: high-grade coins (especially Proof coins) are vulnerable to damage from handling and from the environment. Slabs keep out the vast majority of harmful chemicals and moisture. The coins can be displayed and handled easily, with none of the risks associated with the handling of "raw" coins. >>

amazingly, the pr-68 & pr-69 barber coins in slabs today SURVIVED AS RAW COINS FOR 100 YEARS W/OUT SLABS.



<< <i>Protection: not just for the coin, but for the consumer, as well. If you've ever tried to crack open a PCGS slab, you know how difficult it can be. The sturdiness of the plastic slab means that the coin is protected well and that any tampering efforts will be thwarted or become immediately apparent. >>

i can crack ANY pcgs slab in 3 seconds flat w/out fail. but i do agree that the slabs are nicely tamper-evident



<< <i>Security: each coin certified by PCGS receives a unique identifying number shown on the insert that accompanies each coin in the slab. This number can (and has been) used to protect the integrity of the PCGS system. Anti-counterfeiting measures built into the plastic slab ensure that the grade and the coin are properly matched and preserved. >>

not sure exactly what benefit assigning serial #'s to coins brings, since it's extremely easy to remove a coin from a slab, as i just mentioned - 3 seconds flat



<< <i>Functionality: the special, interlocking design of the plastic PCGS slab allows for stable stacking. Despite its thickness and strength, the clean plastic of the holder offers a clear view of the coin within. A number of different storage solutions exist to satisfy the needs of most collectors. >>

oh boy! now, that washington quarter collection that i've been lugging around in ONE SINGLE DANSCO ALBUM, if i get each coin slabed, i can begin carrying my collection around IN A WHEEL BARROW, because that's seriously about what it would take to cart around TWO HUNDRED COINS! & that's just ONE COLLECTION!!! this claim has always cracked me up. i don't see no way that storing 1000 coins in slabs can possibly be a more convenient storage mechanism than albums. or flips, for that matter.



<< <i>Credibility: the world-class graders at PCGS determine and assign a grade that enjoys wide acceptance within the collecting community. Potential buyers familiar with PCGS grading standards have a "minds-eye" view of what a coin should look like at a particular grade level. Because of the high level of acceptance, the grade becomes truly portable from one party of a transaction to another. >>

if this is SOOOOOO true, then why is it necessary to body-bag coins? if coins can be treated as generic slabs of meat, weighed, packaged & sealed w/ a number slapped on it, why does ANY genuine coin EVER get body-bagged? this is a downright false claim as it stands today (although ANACS & NCS come much closer to this then PCGS, but i'm assuming this a PCGS-oriented argument)



<< <i>Confidence: combined together, the factors listed above, plus others, result in a high level of confidence between buyers and sellers. Confidence leads to increased demand and faster sales at higher prices. >>

of course, HIGHER PRICES is ALWAYS good thing, huh mr. guth? good for WHO exactly, YOU? DEALERS??? dunno about you but i kinda get tired of having to pay more & more & more each year for coins i want. i can understand a moderate amount of inflation, etc. but the ridiculous prices paid for some coins is just plain absurd.



<< <i>All of this is possible thanks to the innovation of the plastic slab. Which is why we like to say, "It's more than just a piece of plastic." >>

yeah, it's a a CHUNK of plastic

how's that for a beginner?

K S

mrearlygold

dorkkarl

the funny thing is, i really don't hate plastic. it's just a minor inconvenience for me to take 3 seconds to crack the coin out, & i just dump the plastic shards into a 55 gallon drum. but the puffery & self-serving HYPE is what i can't stand.

K S

Coinhusker1

Barry

Karl,
You do you crack PCGS slabs?
NGC and ANACS take me 3 seconds in the vise. PCGS shatter break into a million pieces in my vise, so I use large nippers which take a bit longer, but protects me and the coin better...

dorkkarl

i've found that the good old hammer is the universal slab-cracker. even works on segs!

K S

morgannut2

I would never buy an SEGS coin. I don't trust them like I do PCGS.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>

<< <i>All of this is possible thanks to the innovation of the plastic slab. Which is why we like to say, "It's more than just a piece of plastic." >>

yeah, it's a a CHUNK of plastic

how's that for a beginner?

K S >>



Wonderful.

relayer

Even when two people could agree on a grade, there was no way to transfer it to a third party without starting the whole process over. In other words, no one would believe the grade of a coin until they verified it for themselves.


This statement seems to contridict the PCGS grading method itself

If two people (PCGS Graders) agree on a grade, no one should believe it

JadeRareCoin

I hate to say this, but Karl is 100% correct. If anything is "elegant", then it would be Karl's logic and writing......not big blobs of plastic. I must admit that I think that 3rd party grading has had an overall positive impact on our hobby, but I must say that I will always prefer a raw coin over a coin surrounded by heaps of oil-based polymers......for obvious reasons. The irony is that the principals of ALL major grading services would say the same thing.......guaranteed. Slabs are here for one reason: to attempt to protect those who are incapable or unwilling to grade their own coins or establish their own opinions regarding grade. That's it. Hey, one thing that we all have in common is that we LOVE coins (raw or in plastic). How you present and display them is your choice. God bless America.

JadeRareCoin

edited by request.

MORGANHUNTER2

I keep reading here - BUY the COIN- NOT THE SLAB. BTW- I have this table top band saw that I usually use when I do my wood work projects. I took a pcgs slab a few days ago- I have ya all beat - straight smooth cut- 3 seconds- no shards pops open real easy. no damage to the coin and cleanup- easy- have the super sucker that grabs all the particles and a 55 gal drum in the corner- easy 3 pointer from 18 out.

I buy the coin for how it looks to me- in my hand, and remember I'm new to the collecting of morgans. Unless it has an Al capone look to it- most of what I have has something behind it from profusely circulated to the 66 that I just bought(wife got it for xmas) on one side it looks as if it has been trashed thru a bar to the one that looks like it just came off the press. So Dork- I agree with you 100% plastic sucks- only good thing about it- unfortunately I can't think of one- I do know it's not good for our environment.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>BTW, that article is an insult to one's intelligence. Puuulleeeeese. >>



Ouch. Thats a bit strong, isn't it?

au58

We all know how dorkkarl feels about slabs, but his rebuttal makes many very valid points.

Shamika

<< <i>Ron Guth is the Director of Numismatic Research for the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS). >>


Not that I entirely subscribe to dorkkarl's collecting philosophy (though I respect it), but it is noteworthy that the author of this article has a vested interest in slabs. Hardly an objective view point if you ask me.

Shamika

RotatedRainbows

<< <i> Slabs are here for one reason: to attempt to protect those who are incapable or unwilling to grade their own coins or establish their own opinions regarding grade. That's it. >>



That is not an entirely accurate statement, there is a second reason for slabs, to make a few people a lot of money giving their opinion of the coins condition!! A couple of people have made more money giving their grade opinion then they ever made selling coins which is why they decided to get into the business, and not all of them are what you would call honest.

MrEureka

dorkkarl - Most of your points are valid. Still, you fail to recognize that TPG's perform a valuable service for those that don't know how to grade. I understand that you painfully learned how to grade for yourself, and that that's overall a good thing. But it's not important that everyone else learn as painfully as you did. That said, I still believe that new collectors would be better off starting with raw coins and NOT relying on slabs. It's a better education. But it's their choice.

coynclecter

They forgot the #1 reason I like TPG.

I no longer have to waste 20 minutes at each dealers table while he looks at the coin and tries to decide how he's gonna convince me its at least a grade lower than we both know it is.

Dog97

I'll explain it to him:
<<<the slab is a visible, tangible force field>>>
May the force be with you dorkkarl.
OK, He understands now.

Coppernicus

I enjoy DK's posts and respect his opinion on many issues and I know how he (and others) feel about slabs. I can take 'em or leave 'em for my collecting, but I'm glad we have TPG's. Mainly, it gives the collector who lives in the middle of nowhere, without a nearby coin shop, the chance to buy reasonably accurately graded coins (why not from one of the ads in CoinAge, etc.?, hmmmm....) Also, while the TPG's aren't perfect in their grading, is there more variation in the grades at PCGS/NGC/ANACS that at any three local coin shops?

TPG's (and the plastic they peddle) serve an important function in this hobby.

Mike

astrorat

<< <i>

<< <i>Ron Guth is the Director of Numismatic Research for the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS). >>


Not that I entirely subscribe to dorkkarl's collecting philosophy (though I respect it), but it is noteworthy that the author of this article has a vested interest in slabs. Hardly an objective view point if you ask me. >>



Boy, are you off-base here. Ron is one of the most respected voices in numismatics. He is an intelligent, cogent, ethical, and very knowledgeable numismatist . . . not to mention one helluva nice guy. Yes, he works for PCGS, but that does not mean that he is automatically biased. I guarantee you that Ron would not risk his reputation just to "pitch" for his employer.

Lane

morgannut2

As a collector of primarily circulated Morgans for 35 years, I actually mostly agree with dorkcarl. I really don't think they do a very good or consistent job on these coins. And they really don't need the "protection" a proof or unc. does. I still have an album of Morgans, and frankly I find it annoying that say an AU-50 1889CC is valued $3000 less than an AU-55, when in
many cases the coins are essentially identical, the TPG's have the grades reversed, or neither is an AU!! You really are buying registry plastic for many keys in AU. The only cases I disagree are on the higher end material where it really is better for the hobby not to have first time buyers "learn the hard way" as Karl did. And a lot of key dates were SAVED from MORE damage by the TPGs. You need only calculate the percentage of whizzed, cleaned, altered and otherwise messed up former AU 1893-S Morgans now in net graded holders. That is the one exception I can think of for grading circulated coins and encapsulating them. And even now those 50's still get cracked out and dipped to get the magical 53 and a $1000 payday!!

dorkkarl

what's most ironic about the linked gibberish is that it doesn't even mention a positive factor that even i agree w/, which is the authenticity issue. pcgs to my understanding, as well as anacs & ngc, does an admirable job of guaranteeing the authenticity of the coins in a "piece of plastic". isn't it rather strange that this single most inarguable issue doesn't get mentioned, even in passing, in the guth "article"?

even i would gladly admit that when i buy a coin in any of those 3 slabs, i have extremely high confidence in the coin's authenticity, & that reassurance truly IS more than "just a piece of plastic".

K S

dorkkarl

<< <i>dorkkarl - Most of your points are valid. Still, you fail to recognize that TPG's perform a valuable service for those that don't know how to grade. >>

actually, i do recognize that tpg's offer a grading opinion. that opinion is useful for what it is, AN OPINION.

but that is NOT what the guth article babbles about. instead, what he wrote rambles aimlessly & pointlessly in trying to make out a piece of plastic for something other than what it is.

> plastic is NOT elegant

> slabs are EASY to crack open

> slabs are a totally INCONVENIENT way to store a collection of any reasonable size for practical viewing

> but most important of all, the number ON the slab is still just what it is, SOMEBODY'S PAID OPINION.

it doesn't matter how you dress it up, or try to hang fancy phrases on it, or how much you hype it up as the messiah come to save the evils of the seedy coin-dealer underworld, A SLABED GRADE IS STIL JUST SOMEBODY'S PAID OPINION, & to try & present it as anything more is deceptive.

k6az recently accused me of hating slabs, which is not true. what i hate is slabs being represented as more than what they really are. that is exactly what mr. ron guth is doing here.

K S

astrorat

<< <i>what's most ironic about the linked gibberish is that it doesn't even mention a positive factor that even i agree w/, which is the authenticity issue. pcgs to my understanding, as well as anacs & ngc, does an admirable job of guaranteeing the authenticity of the coins in a "piece of plastic". isn't it rather strange that this single most inarguable issue doesn't get mentioned, even in passing, in the guth "article"?

even i would gladly admit that when i buy a coin in any of those 3 slabs, i have extremely high confidence in the coin's authenticity, & that reassurance truly IS more than "just a piece of plastic".

K S >>



You make a great point and I agree that the "authentication" part is unduly ignored when discussing TPG's . Just read the great majority of posts on this forum and all that is bantered about is whether or not a particular rare coin made a certain grade, not whether or not the coin is authentic. But then again, nobody really is worried if their proof Franklin half is real or not, just what grade somebody else thinks it is . . . in the current marketplace.

Lane

Steve27

First, let me say that I agree with karl on all the key points. I would add, that I believe that slabs have taken too far by the TPG companies. IMO coin slabs were never intended as permenant storage containers. You should be able to buy a coin, crack it out of it's temporary slab, and put it in an album. If you ever want to sell it, then you should be able to get it regraded for a nominal fee (something the TPGs wouldn't like), and re-slabbed for sale. Of course, if you're buying the plastic and not the coin, you may not agree with this position.

jom

Great post Karl. 100% agree. I was going to say the key point WAS the authentication but then you posted that too. I have nothing to add...I guess.

jom

JadeRareCoin

Ron is one of the most respected voices in numismatics. He is an intelligent, cogent, ethical, and very knowledgeable numismatist . . . not to mention one helluva nice guy.

Just to be very clear here, I know Mr. Guth and I think that he is a great guy. I never denied that. He's definitely one of the good guys and a talented writer. I just did not like the content of the article, but we don't all have to like everything and we don't always have to agree. After thinking about the article, I realized that it was probably written with new collectors in mind because it is overly simplistic in terms of viewpoint. Sometimes people just getting into the hobby ask me questions about TPGs and I struggle to explain. Perhaps I should print out Ron's article and just hand it to them, of course adding DorkKarl's valid point about authenticity.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>the funny thing is, i really don't hate plastic. it's just a minor inconvenience for me to take 3 seconds to crack the coin out, & i just dump the plastic shards into a 55 gallon drum. but the puffery & self-serving HYPE is what i can't stand. >>



So just whose HYPE about plastic is it that you can't stand?

The TPG's?

The dealers?

We collectors? inquiring minds want to know.

xxxxxxxxxx

<< Confidence: combined together, the factors listed above, plus others, result in a high level of confidence between buyers and sellers. Confidence leads to increased demand and faster sales at higher prices. >>

of course, HIGHER PRICES is ALWAYS good thing, huh mr. guth? good for WHO exactly, YOU? DEALERS??? dunno about you but i kinda get tired of having to pay more & more & more each year for coins i want. i can understand a moderate amount of inflation, etc. but the ridiculous prices paid for some coins is just plain absurd.


Believe it or not DK but smoe of us collectors really do sell coins now and then; each for his/her own reasons of course. Its nice to know that one can oftimes sell his coins for more than he paid and that just because he spent/invested "hobby" money doesn't mean that he should suffer a loss. Its also a proven fact that many times coins in PCGS holders sell faster and for more money than do coins in other TPG or no holders. I will admit that this is not always true however. Yes I too get tired of paying higher prices but if those higher prices mean a profit at sale time then bring em on.

MrEureka

Its also a poven fact that many times coins in PCGS holders sell faster and for more money than do coins in other TPG or no holders.

Many times, sure, but NOT most of the time. Otherwise, dealers would not send so many coins to other TPG's, and I'm not just talking about NGC. For example, some coins bring more in ACG holders.

BAJJERFAN

Well if the turn around time at PCGS and NGC was the same I bet you would see that "many" morph into "most". There are any number of posters here who admit they send or have sent their coins to NGC largely because turnaround times are shorter. Even if NGC grading is/was on par with that of PCGS and turnaround times were similar I bet more folks would continue to use PCGS.

dorkkarl

<< <i>So just whose HYPE about plastic is it that you can't stand? >>

stupid people's hype, almost always in the form of blanket statements, such as:

"only buy slabed coins"



<< <i>Believe it or not DK but smoe of us collectors really do sell coins now and then; each for his/her own reasons of course. Its nice to know that one can oftimes sell his coins for more than he paid and that just because he spent/invested "hobby" money doesn't mean that he should suffer a loss. Its also a proven fact that many times coins in PCGS holders sell faster and for more money than do coins in other TPG or no holders. >>

your missing an obvious point. if ALL coins are rising in price, both the one's your buying AND the one's your selling, then you ARE NOT making a profit (assuming your intent is to stay in coins), since your relative selling price vs. buying price remains the same.

K S

morgannut2

The first Morgan I paid more than $1000 for was raw and an 1893-S. But, if someone did not know how to discern whizzed, altered (AS IN FORGED MINT MARKS), cleaned, etc and also know the unique die cracks etc. to look for in Liberty etc., I am at a loss as to what I should tell them. If more than 40% of the 93S Morgans have been cleaned, and a greater number are altered forgeries-- The only advise to a novice is "ONLY BUY A SLABBED 1893-S MORGAN KEY DATE". That is smart advise, NOT STUPID!!!! The other advise is don't buy at all, if you are not fully able to reach your own opinions, but who listens?

dorkkarl

as i stated previously, AUTHENTICITY is the single valuable service that i think plastic co's provide. personally, i wouldn't buy a significant gold coin unless it was certified, but then again i don't do much collecting in gold.

K S

BASEagle

<< <i><< The plastic slab was an elegant step in the evolution of grading, offering the following benefits:



elegant??? c'mon now, can ANYONE honestly say that those chunks of plastic are ELEGANT??? a scoop dress is elegant. a gull-wing mercedes is elegant! a hummingbird is elegant, but a chunk of nameless, faceless, anonymous piece of plastic ELEGANT??? har-har! >> >>



eloquently put.

Mike

Libertad

A thick slab of Lucite around the coin seems elegant, sized to be useful as a paperweight.
That should slow down the crackout game a bit, and give some credence to the tpg system that
they really mean it now.
No more rattlers.