Lincoln experts - is this 1909-S VDB real?

Russ

What do you guys think?

Russ, NCNE

DominusDeus

the "S" doesn't quite look right to me...

Looks like the S is way too far up. This is the one on Coinfacts.com:

kidd

I agree the S doesn`t look correct. I`m no expert though.

tlhoy

I don't know Russ, but the "S" looks new.

Glenn

RGL

I'm no expert, but that mintmark looks added to me ... what big time auction house has it up?

DominusDeus

Even if it is not authentic (which I don't think it is), the condition blows away any of my wheat cents. I think both of my 1909's (I've got a 1909, and a 1909-VDB) are G4 and AG3.

pharmer

I don't own one anymore, so can't look, but are you saying that the position of the mintmark is a criteria for authenticity? All 484,000 were made with one obverse die? Hard to believe.

Russ

<< <i>what big time auction house has it up? >>



So cynical.

Russ, NCNE

wjd283

I don't believe the S has to be in a certain spot on the coin.Smoeone correct me if I'm mistaken.

Russ

<< <i>but are you saying that the position of the mintmark is a criteria for authenticity? >>



The mint mark can be in a variety of positions on genuine ones.

Russ, NCNE

SUPERCARCOINS

Russ -
what do you mean "real" ?? are you implying it's fake ?? and whats fake ? the coin itself ? the color ? the mintmark ? the surfaces ? the luster ? the composition ?? And are you really concerned with this coin - or do you have unresolved issues with Mr. Lincoln himself ?? and what do you mean "lincoln expert" ? are you an expert to decide someone might be an expert ?? can you prove any of these things ??? I THINK NOT !!

goose3

aren't there 3 different MM positions for the SVDB?

I'll venture without getting a book out that this one might be real.

tjkillian

<< <i>Russ - what do you mean "real" ?? are you implying it's fake ?? and whats fake ? the coin itself ? the color ? the mintmark ? the surfaces ? the luster ? the composition ?? And are you really concerned with this coin - or do you have unresolved issues with Mr. Lincoln himself ?? and what do you mean "lincoln expert" ? are you an expert to decide someone might be an expert ?? can you prove any of these things ??? I THINK NOT !! >>






Now that gave me a good laugh, thank you!

Tom

tlhoy

What bothers me is the period after the "V" in vdb.
On the 1909 S vdb, the period should be higher. See photo below.

wjd283

<< <i>The mint mark can be in a variety of positions on genuine ones >>




That's what I thought.

I still believe that that particular S is glued on.It looks squared off instead of part of the coin.

kidd

It appears to have some tooling around the MM.

Russ

<< <i>I still believe that that particular S is glued on. >>



It isn't.

Russ, NCNE

goose3

ok. I HAD to get my book out.


It's Bogus. the long thin line on the rim above the I in "IN" gives it away. The diagonal depression above "WE" and the depression between the folds of lincoln's coat are the other clues.


The counterfeit obv. die was copied from a genuine one.

VERY DECEPTIVE!!

tlhoy

Heres a real one. Looks pretty close.

Russ

Goose3 nailed it. It's a die struck counterfeit.

Russ, NCNE

Hedger

All 1909 S VDB cents were struck with the same style shape mint mark. It should have a very square box-like S with a notch in the upper serif and a raised dot or lump in the loop. However, four dies were used to strike these cents and the mint mark can be in four different posistions. A genuine piece exhibits a die gouge protruding from the rim above RU of TRUST, a die chip ib B in LIBERTY and raised die gouges from the left wheat sheaf into the field. The VDB on a genuine piece shows the lower portion of the D sloping at an angle. It will need to go under a microscope.

RGL

Darn nice work ...

joeyuk

Also the dot between the D and B on the rev. should be centered on an S minted coin. It is closer to the D on the phily.
On the mint mark there should be a raised dot in the upper loop of the S.

klorineforbrains

Can anyone understand supercarcoins' posts at all?

Russ

<< <i>Darn nice work ... >>



It would certainly fool me in a heartbeat.

Russ, NCNE

rich

Very Interesting Russ! Thanks for the education !

dorkkarl

fake, the "vdb" is not correct.

K S

Shamika

This is damn scary if you ask me!

pharmer

It holds the dubious distinction, among "rare" coins, of being the most common, highest priced, and likely most copied. Yecch, couldn't wait to get rid of mine.

Merc

Wow, what an excellent quality fake. The S is the right size and shape. The details are not clear enough in the picture to see the die chip in the S as you find on a real 1909-S VDB. I read where thousands of these high quality die struck fakes are out there. They are made from a real coin as the template so all of the diagonostics of the real coin are there. The fakes were struck a little too well and are very sharp light a matte proof and have sharp rims or wire rims. The line over the I in IN was the one little giveaway that it was from a fake die. I guess this mark was on the real coin and was transferred to the working counterfeit die. Thanks for showing it.

Melmcbee

Goose may I ask what book you were reading the info out of? Thanks in advance

cohodk

Supercar cracks me up

1907Quarter

It's a die struck counterfeit.

"Now isn't that special!" As the Church Lady would say.

dorkkarl

for me, the 1st place i look at a s-vdb IS the "vdb".

K S

mr1931S

Good information, guys.

Anyone here have an estimate on the percentage of raw fake S V.D.B.'s for sale on ebay at any given time?
I heard 50%, a number, that if accurate, is staggering.

The sad thing is that if so many people can be faked out by a 1944-D altered to appear as a 1914-D, they don't have a prayer with a coin that looks like the one that is the subject of this thread.

mr1931S

ttt

Is it really true that the second period on the genuine "S" coin should must be centered between the "D" and "B"?
I ask because no reference that I have discusses examining the position of the second period to help determine authenticity. Also, from joeyuk's pictures, it looks like the period after the "B" on the SVDB is more distant from the "B" than the period after the "B" on the Philly coin.

One shouldn't even have to look at the obverse for presence or absence of an "S."

BillJones

<< <i>This is damn scary if you ask me! >>



It has been this way with the 1909-S-VDB for years. I dare say there are more examples and copies of this coin now than there were in 1910.

It's the reason why I refuse to sell this coin raw. I've bought them raw and made them, but I'd never sell a raw one. There can be just too many questions.

tjkillian

This is just too scary. This coin is only a $1500.00 coin. How many other coins are out there that we DON'T know all the little idiosynchrasies. Does every know about 1852-D half eagles? How about 1867 half dimes? There could be so many, it seems like only a matter of time before we are so flooded with fakes that coin collecting would be doomed. Soon, if a coin is not mentioned in a late 19th century catalog, it will be assumed to be fake.

This was the scariest thread I've ever read.

Tom

mr1931S

"This was the scariest thread I've ever read."

If you want to read something even scarier, check out "Numismatic Forgery" by Charles Larson.

If you consider yourself to be a serious collector, investor or dealer and the contents of this book don't frighten you, you have ice water in your veins.-Charles M. Larson

The subject coin of this thread was probably made using electroplated-with-nickel die shells. A genuine blank copper planchet was struck with explosive impact using these dies. That's why the color and detail are so good.

merz2

I didn't read all the posts to this thread,but IMHO it is an added Mint Mark.The placement doesn't matter because they were added by hand after the fact.That "S' is from a much later year.

mr1931S

"That "S' is from a much later year."

The type of "S" doesn't look good to you?

goose3

<< <i>Goose may I ask what book you were reading the info out of? Thanks in advance >>




it's called "Counterfeit Detection" "A reprint from The Numismatist" from 1983.