The 1909-VDB DDO is really a TDO! Update

clackamas

I posted this to the US coin forum as well so sorry for reading it twice.

I own a very early die state 1909-VDB FS#12 DDO in 65RD. I was writing a description of the coin, so I was looking at it closely under 10X and I think that the DDO is actually a tripple die obverse (TDO) Looking at the lower right hand corner of the bust I can see three hubbings which can also be seen on the "Y" in "LIBERTY". Can anyone else confirm this? It looks as if the offset hubbing causing the doubling was done twice and then the correct hubbing was done at least once. I emailed John Wexler to see if he can confirm as well.

BTW - I can see it on the first "9" in "1909" as well.

clackamas

Got an email back from John Wexler:

Brian,

I have looked at the coin and I do believe that it is a tripled die as you
noted.

Unfortunately I am not going to be able to photograph it. I have tried
three times and each time the photos come back with too much glare to really
make anything out. This is a major problem when trying to photograph
slabbed coins. PCGS is one of the worst to try to photograph. I am
sometimes able to get decent photos through ANACS slabs but they are about
the only ones.

As a result of these failed efforts, I will make a footnote to the tripling
in any future references to the variety, however, I will not e able to
document it with photos unless I get a similar coin in that is not in a
slab.

I will get the coin back to you the first chance that I get to go to the
post office. Right now we are being buried by a snow storm that is expected
to leave about 18 inches in the area. We should be dug out by Monday.

John

RBinTex

I wonder if THIS is a TDO also

clackamas

<< <i>I wonder if <a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39456&item=3953784845&rd=1" target=blank><STRONG>THIS</STRONG></A> is a TDO also >>




Ok I will bite, yes it is the same variety so it would be a triple die as well. The trick is getting the coin photographed and then getting all the grading services to update this a triple die obverse instead of noting it as the FS#12 Doubled die.

LincolnCentMan

Is that date/varriety hard to find?

David

RBinTex

Is that date/varriety hard to find?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Brian and Roger - A doubled die CAN be a triple die but a triple die cannot be a double die.Let's leave it the way it is presently listed.
The graders have too much trouble counting full steps on Jefferson nickels.
BTW I have both a ms 66 red and an ms 67 red 1909 VDB DDO.Perhaps they are triple dies also but I don't care what you call them.

Stewart

clackamas

Stewart, they are triple dies if it is FS#12 which is listed as a double die and was always thought to be only a doulbed die. Don't you think it would be cool if it was listed a Triple Die Obverse instead of Doubled Die Obverse on the holder?

illini420

Was browsing some old threads and thought this one was interesting, need to get out my loupe and check this out on a coin for sure. If it really is a TDO, PCGS and all of the other references should be calling this a TDO and not a DDO, right??? Any updates on this in last 4-5 years?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

I have a 1938 s/s/s and it is plainly visible however PCGS will only call it an s/s. I suggest that if you could get Bill Fivaz or J.T. Stanton
to call the 1909 VDB DDO a triple die obverse it would be great. The next step is to get Ken Bresett to list the coin in the Red Book so more people would
believe it.

Stewart

segoja

Anyone need a spare 09-VDB DDO Die 1 in PCGS MS66 RED?

PM me, as I have a spare

clackamas

Wow back from the dead thread, I now actually believe its a Quad DDO. My EDS 65RD is no longer with me, but if you look at an EDS coin look at the base of the bust and count the lines, this is where it was evident to me. I have looks at other MS coins that were latter die state and its not as apparent. I had John Wexler confim this (mentioned in more detail above) but he could not get a pic through the slab. Way back when I talked to PCGS about cracking the coin to take a photo, they agreed but I never followed through.

BigRick

kevinj

Attached are photos of 1909 VDB DDO-001, of the RTY of LIBERTY and 190 of the date.

The doubling is very clear in these photos.

If you have a die state which has evidence or tripling, have you considered the possiblity of
the third image being remnant of a working hub doubled die? I believe I have seen evidence of
the same on the front of the jacket.

Are you are talking about the top right of the Y of LIBERTY, whereas a very light, very low to the field,
metal is seen? If so, might this be the result of strke doubling, does your specimen show clear
and distinct corners?

If the images are that light or small that they cannot be photographed, should they be considered
as part of the doubling? The same argument is also presented for light repunching of the date
or mintmark.

In my opinion, after studying thousands of coins, I do not believe that they should. I have seen coins
with such light doubling or repunching that it would take me an hour to try to get the light correct
in order to photograph. The primary point I consider is whether the average collector will easily be
able to distinguish and indentify this variety.

I agree that it is a point of interest and actually helps distinguish an early die state specimen.

But do you think it would be wise for a grading service to distinguish the same. In my opinion, no,
they would then put themselves out on a ledge on an arguable perspective. In addition, what if there
are several die states, some of which are very minute? When does a grading service call it a doubled
die vs tripled die?

From conversations with ANACS graders years ago, I remember them telling me that if the die variety was
visible with a 5x loop, they would call it that die variety, else they would not.

In addition, the objective of certifying a die variety is to distinguish the general type of variety.
I know John and myself for the new Lincoln cent book only used DDO/DDR to identify doubled dies, irrelevant
if they were doubled, tripled....., I believe most other attributors are doing the same.
I have used in the past more descriptive attribution, such as DDO/TDO/QDO, but found that to be confusing
to the average collector, in addition to possibly be confusing to the number assigned.

In my opinion, the grading services have come along way and currently attribute many of the major varieties.

Thanks
Kevin

clackamas

Kevin, the quaddruple was evident and the base of the bust/jacket. Its quite evident and is not strike doubling, John could not get a photo of it through the slab, I was unwilling to crack the coin, hence the problem with getting the photo. I have since sold the coin so I can't contribute any more to the discussion than what I have, being an engineer, I like descriptions that are accurate, i.e., if it doubled calle it so, if it is trippled, call it so, there is no ambiguity in the truth only when we take short cuts in descriptions.

illini420

Ok, here's a pic of dbemike's 1909 DDO and a link to the super large trueview picture. In the large picture I can see tripling on the bottom of Lincoln's coat pretty easily, but not quite sure I can see quads.

Mega Large TrueView