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Opinions on Cross-overs??
RAD
Posts: 287
What is the general concensus on cross-overs...I have many NGC graded coins that I believe would have little problem crossing over to PCGS. I have never done that, largely out of my belief in the coin, not the holder, BUT..............PCGS's policy of accepting only their own coins into their Registry sets is making me reconsider. Inclusion of several of the NGC coins would certainly boost me up the ranks!!
I would be interested in hearing other people's thoughts and success rates at crossing over.....
I would be interested in hearing other people's thoughts and success rates at crossing over.....
RAD
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My success rating for NGC crossovers is probably in the 30-40% range.
I like to tell the story of my 1923-S Mercury Dime. The coin was originally in an NGC MS61 holder. I sent it for crossover and it DNC and they sent it back to me.
I broke the coin out of the holder and sent it back for grading and it came back MS63. I really feel they downgrade just because it is in the competion's holder. They say it doesn't matter, but I have no other way to explain what happened to me. If I send coins for crossing now, I make sure there is a 100% chance for crossing or I break it out and send it raw.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
The first time I tried crossing, which was a few years ago, 3 out of 8 made it with one going up in grade.
Ken
RAD -- I'm at 33% myself over this past year. The problem? The ones that counted didn't cross holder to holder because I was too wimpy to crack them out and send in raw. I wrote about what I believe to be a bias on the part of PCGS in crossgrading holder to holder. My own devious mind has come to the conclusion that the only reason why they offer the crossgrade service is to MAKE MONEY FROM DUNCES LIKE ME!!! and to see what's out there in other holders...cherry picking the best of the best and putting in to a PCGS holder -- thus resulting in the nicest coins in PCGS holders and enabling PCGS to further their business/competitive advantage.
Personally, I'm done submitting coins in other holders for crossover grading. It is a tax on naive coin collectors -- myself once included
So my advice to you is if you believe in your coin's grade, then step up to your belief -- crack the coin out and send it in raw
Happy New Year!!!
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
Ken
I learn quickly! -- my goal is not not to make mistakes but to make less of them as I get older, as I will undoubtedly still get cought up in my enthusiasm and will likely be disappointed yet once again. In the last few weeks I sat back and counted up how much I thought I had saved by buying non-NGC holdered coins (this year) that I though were PQ and then how much money I spent trying to get them in to a properly graded PCGS holder, and the result -- I should have looked for and bought a PCGS holdered coin at the outset. I would have saved $$, time and saved being disappointed on many, many occasions.
That's why, purely subjectively speaking, I'm now sticking to buying nice raw coins at a discount to the slabbed price and paying for first-time PCGS grading, or buying PCGS slabbed coins that are nice for the grade -- like some that you've been gracious enough to sell me
Mike.
I would love to buy nice raw coins. Out here in the mega coin capital of the world nice raw mercs are not available period. The only source for coins is Web Sites, these boards and Ebay. Sometimes you just have to take a chance and buy what you think you are looking at. With reguards to cracking all of the coins personally one chance is enough with myself so that is why some are submitted in the slab. If it crosses, fine, if not, it is still in the slab at the grade it was purchased for. For a coin that is over a couple of hundred bucks I am stilll a big clucker when it comes to cracking them out.
Conservative and not trusting personal grading skills, probably so. Whos to say on any given day that PCGS graders, or anyone for that matter, could be the same also.
The 31P....you should crack it and try for a 67....
Ken
Don't let me fool you, though, my hands shake when I crack out a coin out of an NGC (or other) holder -- my brain racing a mile a minute saying, "you must be on drugs...what are you thinking...you're nuts, etc..."
1. Although this sounds simplistic, it doesn't matter what you believe the coins grade, it only matters to the graders, so try to learn in each series how PCGS grades. It's been said that 90-95% of the time their grades are accurate and I would agree.
2. I think you will find that NGC will allow you to put PCGS graded coins in their registry. It seems to be growing fast and someday it might compete with the PCGS registry. Anyone who agrees or disagrees with this statement is just guessing like I am. Just like there is here there are some fantastic sets there.
3. It's only human nature for graders to think that the company they grade for is superior, so one would have to believe there is a slab bias.
4. Coins graded by both services in the past year seem to be more and more graded to the same standards.
5. The folks who will disagree with my comments the most vociferously either have a lot of money invested in registry quality coins here or sell to those collectors.
14 raw mercs in a year. Since getting back into this back in 97 I have found exactly 3. Sure late dates are available but whats the sense in buying them.
Irish Mike.
Number 4 certainly appears to be true from what I have seen. This is coming from one of the guys that said for sure NGC was a grade lower than PCGS a couple of years ago.
How about those Beavers... ND did better than the Quackers tho...
Ken
The NGC Registry allows PCGS coins in it and most every set on their site is a mixture of both TPG slabs, so you may want to seriously consider participating at NGC. My personal experience taught me that PCGS graders definitely have a bias, even if slight and subliminal, when a coin comes in for crossover. I sent in a monster NGC MS67 coin that was in an older holder that was pristine, that is, the holder had no scuffs or scratches that could have made viewing the coin difficult. The coin came back as DNC with an MS66 notation. It was later cracked out and sent to PCGS where it went MS68. The difference was thousands of dollars.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Rad is in the NGC registry. It looks like PCGS has became the choice now. When it comes to mercs most of the sets over there are PCGS slabbed coin sets anyway.
I can see why some folks would want to leave NGC. A prime example is the DLRC sets that were added to the registries and continue to be left in the registries. How do you think this makes a collector feel ? Did David Lawrence build these sets ? Nope they just SOLD them. Also some sets are present that are not active any more. Probably this is not NGC's fault but the sets are still there.
Ken
Maybe the Merc folks are weird or something. Through the time I have been around here I think these folks really do buy the best coin they can find. Maybe it was a PCGS slabbed coin and more than likely for a good reason up untill the last year or so. Now, if some of the folks are not looking at NGC newly slabbed coins they just may be missing the boat.
Yes it is hard to get your set off the NGC registry. I deleted mine but the last time I looked it was still there but with no coins showing. Needless to say I was in last place...
Ken
Couple of thoughts to put out there to test my own sanity --
- Should there be some designation within registry sets for collectors and dealers, to distinguish between the 2? Kind of like a college team playing against the pro's.
- Once you get to MS64 and higher, is it really grading or simply ranking? I.e. this 65FB is much better than most so it must be a 66FB; this 67FB is much better than all the others that I've seen so therefore it is now a 68FB...will this eventually hold true and will we have 69FB's??...and would we not eventually run out of grading scale that only goes to 70? I think the coin gurus should have a caucus and challenge conventional thinking for higher graded coins and develop a ranking system instead of using a grading system that is more appropriate for circulated coins -- many merits but that's another post
- Should graders at TPG companies only specialize in certain issues? Obviously one can't be a jack of all trades! For instance, you might have a stellar Merc you send in and out of the 4 people looking at them 3 aren't big Merc guys -- meaning they haven't seen a lot of Merc's. If the graders specialize in certain issues they would have a much better sense of the coin's grade. I.e. Us Merc guys look at a lot of Merc's and get a good sense after a while -- I'm not sure the same holds true for TPG's.
Here is another example of a crossover experience of mine that was fairly bizarre. The coin was an ICG graded MS68FB Merc, it was graded when ICG first opened up for business and when they were much tougher on the super gem grades. I submitted the coin to PCGS to cross as low as MS67FB but it came back in the ICG holder with a note that it was an MS66FB by PCGS standards. I then showed it to David Hall about two months later and he told me that it was a lock FB and was likely a full MS68FB according to PCGS standards and that I should submit the coin for crossover with MS67FB as the minimum grade and that it would definitely cross. The next day I picked the coin up and it was still in the ICG MS68FB holder. I asked why it didn't cross and, after they spoke to the grader, I was told that the grader thought it was an MS68 without FB. So, within the course of two months, the coin was graded MS66FB, MS67FB/MS68FB and MS68 by PCGS. I eventually sold the coin for good money to a specialist in the series who agreed it was accurately graded by ICG.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
It's been said that 90-95% of the time their grades are accurate and I would agree.
This just cannot be true. There is no grading service and certainly no one human who is currently 90-95% accurate. On their BEST days PCGS might reach 90% but on average you'd be lucky if they are 80% accurate. Just send the same 10 coins back time and time again and you'll get varying grades. My own experience with PCGS and seated coins is that they are about 75-80% accurate. That's it.
Maybe they are better at silver dollars or Lincoln cents.
The only caution I provide about those who think they are 100% sure of a cross and will crack out a coin: there are tons of doctored coins out there that overall look darn good that you are sure they will cross or upgrade. I've had my share of altered surfaces, AT,
stained, and other odd-ball descriptions as to why a cracked out coin would not grade. And sometimes the same service won't even reholder their own coin. Be very leery of a sure fire crack out....there's really no such thing. There is always risk. 99% of buyers should buy the best coin they can and leave it holdered as is.
roadrunner
Both were Peace dollars, a MS63 Gold label PCI that came back as an AU58!
The other was a NGC 1927-D MS61......came back BB for PVC!
No more crack-outs for me, I'll sell the non-PCGS coin & buy a PCGS graded coin first even if I have to pay the difference!
IrishMike
Master Collector
Posts: 6529
Joined: Mar 2002
Friday December 31, 2004 8:48 AM (NEW!)
I
2. I think you will find that NGC will allow you to put PCGS graded coins in their registry. It seems to be growing fast and someday it might compete with the PCGS registry. Anyone who agrees or disagrees with this statement is just guessing like I am. Just like there is here there are some fantastic sets there.
3. It's only human nature for graders to think that the company they grade for is superior, so one would have to believe there is a slab bias.
4. Coins graded by both services in the past year seem to be more and more graded to the same standards.
5. The folks who will disagree with my comments the most vociferously either have a lot of money invested in registry quality coins here or sell to those collectors. But that is ok I have thick skin.
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Mike
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over to PCGS. As of late I have been trying to buy NGC coins a grade higher than what is truly my intention to be where I want to be.
I have had an occasional surprise but 7 out of 10 times I have found the NGC coin will grade 1 point lower at PCGS.
(4 sides). By the time you get to the 3rd or fourth crack it comes apart. All you are trying to do is split it apart, so lightly tap
until you hear it crack, and keep doing the same thing around the holder. The screwdriver should never go more than an eighth of an inch into the holder. I have yet to damage a coin. Take your time that is the key.
Since I do it a different way, and I haven't heard anyone suggest this yet, here it goes (only for NGC slabs).....
1. Buy a .99 cent cheap, flimsy ultra thin pearing knife.
2. Turn on your stove
3. Hold knife by handle and heat the blade for 10 seconds
4. Apply blade to the plastic seal in the slab
5. Repeat all the way around the seal
6. Be patient
7. Volia...opens like a well cooked clam!
No risk of jarring the coin, flying plastic chips, scratching or anything.
No one does it this way? Am I a dufis for not thinking of using the hammer, etc., ways you've described thus far?
The way I do is so mellow -- I even play music in the background to take the edge off and the kids can even watch