Coin not rcvd by Buyer - No Insurance - what do I do?

SemperFI · December 30, 2004 11:40AM

I as the seller, the buyer never rcvd his coin after three weeks but did not request insurance. Value of the coin is $85. Can anything be done for the buyer? I have the P.O. rcpt with his location as mailed. Any Help? Never had a lost coin until now.

K6AZ · December 30, 2004 11:47AM

Whenever you go to sell a coin online that involves shipping to the buyer, if the coin is valued at $50 or more, do not make insurance an option to the buyer. You as the seller are responsible for getting the coin to the buyer. Insurance covers the seller much more than the buyer.

In this case, and especially if it was an eBay auction, refund the buyer and hope he is honest if the coin shows up. In the future, do not leave yourself open to this, require insurance for anything over $50.

endzone · December 30, 2004 11:47AM

I'm not to sure if anything can be done now.
Other than the fact, it's his word against yours.

I usually send my coins with del. conf., when a buyer
does not opt for the insurance.

Good luck!

GAT · December 30, 2004 11:50AM

I just had a 1921 Zerbe Morgan take 14 days to reach outside Chicago from San Diego. Don't give up yet.

fcloud · December 30, 2004 12:01PM

I think you need to give it 30 days just like the post office. They won't allow a claim for 30 days because they know it sometimes takes that long. If it doesn't show in 30 days, I would give the buyer a refund. I insure all my packages even though none have ever been lost. That way if it does get lost at least I can get the money I need to refund.

TomB · December 30, 2004 12:01PM

If you offered insurance but the buyer declined then I would say that you should do nothing. However, if you didn't offer insurance at all then I would think that you should make the buyer whole.

I have only had one coin ever get lost in the mail and it was to a buyer who declined my offer of insurance on a $95 coin. He then told me that it was the third or fourth coin in the last three months that was shipped to him and that never arrived. I would have thought by that time that they buyer would have definitely wanted insurance. Since that time I include insurance in my shipping fees and there is no option to decline it.

tjkillian · December 30, 2004 12:06PM

As I've said, and others as well, insurance is not for the buyer, rather the seller. In the future, only ship with insurance. It should not be an option.

Tom

TWODOGS · December 30, 2004 12:10PM

Giving the option of insurance is unwise. It doesn't matter if the buyer doesn't want it. It's YOUR responsibility to do everything to make sure that the coin is delivered. If it isn't delivered, YOUR butt needs to be covered. If you say, "You didn't take the insurance." and he complains to ebay, it's you that will still have to make good.

He fulfilled his end of the bargain, he paid. Your end is to get him the coin or his money back.

100proof1957 · December 30, 2004 12:11PM

Well guys,heres my take.

Ebay requires you to deliver the coin (well actually its contract law)

You,as the seller are required to deliver,end of deal.

MassFullStepper · December 30, 2004 12:14PM

Everything, as a seller or buyer, is insured........EVERYTHING...whether its $500 or $5.00...tjkillian is right....its for the seller, not buyer....but gives the buyer a sense of security also...... and, really, for $1.30 and small increments from there? Too cheap not to take/require

zzzz · December 30, 2004 12:17PM

If you never offered Insurance after 30 - 45 days .. reimburse him .. call it you self insured the coin.

As stated: ALWAYS include Insurance with your S&H.

At the very least send with Signiture Confirmation. Then you can see online WHO signed for it.

Delivery Confirmation is WORTHLESS .. If the buyer doesn't receive the item. It's then your word against his on whether "HE" got the item. The Post Office only says the item was delivered not WHERE.

Sequitur · December 30, 2004 12:18PM

Responsibility lies with the shipper, in this case the seller. Whether the buyer "refused" insurance has no bearing on the matter.

BAJJERFAN · December 30, 2004 12:22PM

Even if the buyer refused to pay for insurance it would have been a wise move on your part to have gotten it anyway.

SemperFI · December 30, 2004 4:22PM

Thanks everyone for your input. The guy lives in CT and it may have taken the Chicago route and may have been stuck in weather. That is my guess. I always offer insurance, but many people just decline it. I think I will make insurance a MUST on all my ebay items. Thanks again.

morgannut2 · December 30, 2004 4:30PM

I'd make shipping postage free, and require insurance mandatory to protect your good name. And I'd offer him the same coin with a 1/2 refund you can find one. You may be getting it back "wrong address" anyway.

SemperFI · December 30, 2004 4:43PM

Nah, the address was correct. I verified that with him today and the City, State and Zip show correct on the P.O. Rcpt.

mr1931S · December 30, 2004 4:44PM

Require insurance as part of terms of sale. If buyer refuses to pay for insurance go ahead and insure and send anyway. Also, relatively expensive items (say $500 or more) should ALWAYS be sent registered insured.

A buyer who refuses to pay for insurance required per my terms of sale would get the item sent to them insured but would most likely be blocked from participating in my future auctions.

Conder101 · December 30, 2004 5:26PM

<< Whenever you go to sell a coin online that involves shipping to the buyer, if the coin is valued at $50 or more, do not make insurance an option to the buyer. You as the seller are responsible for getting the coin to the buyer. >>

If the seller is responsible for getting the coin to the buyer, why should the buyer have to pay for the insurance? Can't see why the buyer should have to pay for the sellers reponsiblity.

Rampage · December 30, 2004 9:28PM

Matt, I am sorry to hear of your situation. As already said, do not make insurance an option. On items $50.00 and under, I charge $3.25. That covers my packaging, postage and insurance, with less than a dollar left over, which I like to consider "handling". On items over $50.00, I charge "$1.50, plus insurance, which is required".

Good luck on however you decide to resolve your situation.

Richard.

Barry · December 30, 2004 9:34PM

<< Responsibility lies with the shipper, in this case the seller. Whether the buyer "refused" insurance has no bearing on the matter. >>

Armen Vartian thinks differently. In one of his Coin World columns a few years ago, he discussed UCC rules. Here's what he said:
If the buyer refuses insurance, the buyer is responsible. If the seller is a dealer (one who makes a significant part of his income selling coins/collectibles), and insurance wasn't offered, the seller is responsible. If the seller is a hobbyist, and the insurance wasn't offered, the buyer is responsible.

1956Quarter · December 30, 2004 10:11PM

As long as you can prove that you shipped the coin by having an original Post Office receipt, you have NO further liability. If a buyer does not ask for insurance, wheither you offered it or not, then the burden is on THEM. All you are required to do is properly ship the item, and be able to prove that. They are out of luck, period. All of this talk about insurance being there to protect you as a seller is insane and totally incorrect, it in fact covers their purchase. I've been down this road too many times and have been scamed a few times by crooks who simply claim they never recieved an item. I would recieve threats of being sued and every other nasty thing. I would return their money just to get them off my back. One day I was chatting with my lawyer and happened to mention this rip off scheme. He set me straight right then and there. The only obligation you have is to ship the item and be able to prove it. No one will sue you in a situation like this, and if they did they would LOSE. So tell this crook you'll fax him a copy of the PO receipt proving that you sent it, and seeing that he did not request insurance, there is nothing you can do as your obligation ended when you shipped the item. Hell if this theory were true and legal I'd never pay for anything I got on e-bay, I'd just cry it never arrived every time and reap the benefits or having my cake and eating it too.

jmccarthy1983 · December 30, 2004 10:19PM

I suggest sending everything Priority mail with signature confitmation... that way you have proof he recieved it.

IrishMike · December 30, 2004 10:38PM

<< 

<< Whenever you go to sell a coin online that involves shipping to the buyer, if the coin is valued at $50 or more, do not make insurance an option to the buyer. You as the seller are responsible for getting the coin to the buyer. >>

If the seller is responsible for getting the coin to the buyer, why should the buyer have to pay for the insurance? Can't see why the buyer should have to pay for the sellers reponsiblity.

>>

If you post in the listing that insurance is required and post the total postage charge, then the bidder can factor that into their bid. I require it on every deal and sometimes I make a few cents and sometimes I lose a few cents. No one forces the bidder to bid.

CoinResource · December 30, 2004 10:43PM

I insure everything now. Funny how I have only lost UNINSURED Packages - ever (even though I only let folks uninsure for $50 or less).

Your next steps depend on what your terms say. If the buyer takes possession at the time of shipping, he is responsible for insurance and the itme if lost. A shipment receipt doesn't really show WHO the item was mailed to, by the way. You may want to take care of this buyer and change your shipping, insurance, and ownership terms for future sales.

Good luck, I've lost several in similar circumstances. -cr

BAJJERFAN · December 30, 2004 11:04PM

<<"Armen Vartian thinks differently. In one of his Coin World columns a few years ago, he discussed UCC rules. Here's what he said:
If the buyer refuses insurance, the buyer is responsible. If the seller is a dealer (one who makes a significant part of his income selling coins/collectibles), and insurance wasn't offered, the seller is responsible. If the seller is a hobbyist, and the insurance wasn't offered, the buyer is responsible">>

This is all well and good but the stickler is that if the buyer uses a credit card and /or PreyPal he has recourse and can complain and oftimes get reimbursed if you can't prove to either PreyPal or the CC company that the item was delivered.
It would be nice if eBay had a small paragragh or link with each listing stating what the UCC rules are; that way there can be no arguing over who is responsible for what. I'm guessing that the percentage of buyers who refuse ins is small so in that case I get it anyway. I usually figure it into the price somewhere.

CoastGuard · December 30, 2004 11:04PM

As an insurance guy I say: actually the USPS insurance is quite very expensive at a rate of $1.30 per $50.00 in value. They have no documentation to back up why the rate should be so high. I'd like to see an investigation into USPS insurance rates and actuary science applied. Anyway, I mailed $43.00 worth of silver dimes to a buyer and he got the package but it was sliced open and empty and stamped by PO package received empty/damaged. I made him mail it back to me for proof. I did not mandate insurance and he did not buy it. It was his option. Since he did not buy or want insurance I felt he was also to blame. That's the risk the buyer takes, right? I went ahead and replaced the dimes at no charge. It was Christmas after all! How do I track down the postal worker thief? My mistake was I mailed the small package in a stand alone mail box instead of taking it to the actual post office. I bet the postal worker who picks up the mail, working alone, sliced it open and proceeded to put it in the system mailing it empty.
What do you think?

IrishMike · December 30, 2004 11:14PM

Insurance rates:

Insurance Fees Amount to be collected or
insurance desired
Fee in addition
to postage
$0.01 to $ 50.00
$1.30

50.01 to 100.00
2.20

00.01 to 200.00
3.20

200.01 to 300.00
4.20

300.01 to 400.00
5.20

400.01 to 500.00
6.20

500.01 to 600.00
7.20

600.01 to 700.00
8.20

700.01 to 800.00
9.20

800.01 to 900.00
10.20

900.01 to 1,000.00
11.20

SemperFI · December 31, 2004 12:35AM

Here is the rcpt I sent to the buyer. I wanted to make sure it was actually sent to the correct city/zip plus proof that it was actually sent. *Cheshire, CT*

K6AZ · December 31, 2004 12:42AM

<< 

<< Responsibility lies with the shipper, in this case the seller. Whether the buyer "refused" insurance has no bearing on the matter. >>

Armen Vartian thinks differently. In one of his Coin World columns a few years ago, he discussed UCC rules. Here's what he said:
If the buyer refuses insurance, the buyer is responsible. If the seller is a dealer (one who makes a significant part of his income selling coins/collectibles), and insurance wasn't offered, the seller is responsible. If the seller is a hobbyist, and the insurance wasn't offered, the buyer is responsible. >>

Try telling that to PayPal when they take the money out of your account because you have no proof of delivery.

K6AZ · December 31, 2004 12:44AM

<< I suggest sending everything Priority mail with signature confitmation... that way you have proof he recieved it. >>

Let's see, $3.85 plus $1.80 for signature confirmation - that's a total of $5.15 for postage alone. In this case, first class plus insurance would have been $3.03.

Shamika · December 31, 2004 12:59AM

K6AZ is right on the mark. Regardless wheterh or not the guy is scamming you, consider it a lesson learned. Insurance should not be optional in this case.

BAJJERFAN · December 31, 2004 12:59AM

By the nature of their business ebay facilitates the formation of binding contracts between uninformed sellers and buyers yet seems to offer little information as to what the obligation of each party to the contract has to each other. I spose it could be buried on their site somewhere but they really do need to make this info more readily available. If a buyer refused insurance the seller could refer him to the info and give him a chance to reconsider. Also if the buyer refuses ins he should be be required to sign a waiver saying so.

razorface1027 · December 31, 2004 1:06AM

My last myocardial infarction took place when a fellow purchased a 1877-S T.D. for 8 or 900 from me. He lived in Georgia if memory serves me. 3-1/2 to 4 weeks later he received it. He too, was one of those that didn't want to spend the few extra bucks for insurance; therefore, I was forced to send it registered/insured from the sale proceeds. Remember, always cover yer butt.

Give it time, there's a high probability it'll show. The U.S. Snail does this every once in awhile.

Tom

K6AZ · December 31, 2004 1:15AM

The mail has been very slow lately too. I mailed a coin to another board member on the 23rd and he still hasn't received it yet.

Outhaul · December 31, 2004 1:16AM

I don't care if it's a buck or a million bucks...insurance is not optional when I list on sleazebay. If you don't want to pay for insurance, move along...I don't want your business. I strongly believe there are people who opt for no insurance specifically to deny to the seller that the goods were delivered and get refunded and keep the goods. There are all kinds of scumbags on sleazebay.

Cheers,

Bob

csw · December 31, 2004 1:18AM

1956Quarter is right. Typically the seller's obligation under the UCC is to safely deliver the moveable good (here, the coin) to the shipper, and no more. You did that, and you have strong evidence (the postal receipt) that you did so. You DO NOT have an obligation to ensure the item is actually delivered, and that's true regardless of whether you do or don't or did or didn't offer insurance to the buyer.

Yes, you may face initial troubles with PayPal and/or eBay, but your postal receipt should (repeat: "should") go a long way toward a favorable resolution. Yes, it may be aggravating. Indeed, it could be more aggravation than the coin is worth. And yes, you could suffer a negative feedback. But legally, you fulfilled your obligation. Legally, that the coin didn't reach your buyer is not your problem. Legally, I say.

All of this is not to say that in the future you shouldn't offer insurance or insist on it. Many knowledgeable dealers here just told you that you should, and their advice strikes me as valuable. Further, their advice that you should pony up the cost of the coin is based on their own sense of ethics, and you may wish to follow their lead for your own reasons. I'm just saying that from the law's point of view, you're off the hook.

At least, that's the way it is in most states. I caution you that each state's own commercial laws vary. I'm describing the typical set of rules.

Regards,
--csw

K6AZ · December 31, 2004 1:21AM

<< I don't care if it's a buck or a million bucks...insurance is not optional when I list on sleazebay. If you don't want to pay for insurance, move along...I don't want your business. I strongly believe there are people who opt for no insurance specifically to deny to the seller that the goods were delivered and get refunded and keep the goods. There are all kinds of scumbags on sleazebay.

Cheers,

Bob >>

That's the number one reason I don't give buyers the option when I sell on eBay. There is an even more sleazy buyer scam going on. Let's say you sell a coin for $300. The buyer pays with PayPal. You send the coin insured for $300. The buyer receives it, sees there is no tracking on it, and files a PayPal complaint. Guess what? You are out the $300, even if the PO's internal tracking shows it was signed for and delivered. If you can't provide PayPal a tracking number that can be checked online, you lose and the money is gone.

BAJJERFAN · December 31, 2004 1:46AM

Agreed which is another reason to hate PreyPal. In their defense however I really don't see a PreyPal customer service rep running down to the P.O. with a bunch of tracking numbers to be verified. If there were enough they could arrange with the USPS to access that function online but like most American businesses they don't want to be bothered.

atarian · December 31, 2004 1:49AM

if the coin was shipped out by way of the USPS they have all packages covered (insured) up to $100. thats what the guy told me last time i mailed my package. i guess youd be able to go down and talk to the po if youwant.

BAJJERFAN · December 31, 2004 1:51AM

There is no automatic ins shipment on any USPS service that I know of with, I think, the exception for express mail.

sinin1 · December 31, 2004 9:19AM

I had a buyer tell me that they did not recieve the coin - it was only a $10 coin -

I had the information on the date I sent it - and was packaged very well and confirmed their address

I told them I would refund their money, but would also add to the 'feedback' that they said they did not receive the item - because I had been scammed by buyers before

I asked them what they wanted me to do - they said forget it
I do not know if they truly did not get the item, or if they try to get their money back on all their purchases

Conder101 · December 31, 2004 3:34PM

<< Also if the buyer refuses ins he should be be required to sign a waiver saying so. >>

When I decline insurance I normally send them an e-mail stating that I decline it and that I understand that I and accepting the risks involved.

TWODOGS · December 31, 2004 3:49PM

<< 1956Quarter is right. Typically the seller's obligation under the UCC is to safely deliver the moveable good (here, the coin) to the shipper, and no more. You did that, and you have strong evidence (the postal receipt) that you did so. You DO NOT have an obligation to ensure the item is actually delivered, and that's true regardless of whether you do or don't or did or didn't offer insurance to the buyer. >>

Are you kidding me? THAT receipt is strong evidence? There's no name, no address, nothing but a town, state and zipcode. Where's the proof that he didn't send an empty bubblewrap envelope to a ficticious address?

There's absolutely no evidence there that he shipped the buyer the coin.

csw · December 31, 2004 4:29PM

I think it's pretty strong evidence, yes. Easy to get an affidavit from the other addressees attesting that they received *their* coins. Add in seller's good feedback rating, and the buyer is left only with an argument that it was a vast conspiracy against him alone. When everyone else on the receipt got their coins, and when the seller has never been accused of anything like this before, I think it's pretty hard to conclude that the seller didn't actually ship the coin.

Until the post office starts examining and verifying the contents of every single package, there's no way to prove what was in it, regardless of whether the package was insured. As I said, I agreed that requiring insurance in the future seemed wise, but that's a different issue.

-c-

TWODOGS · December 31, 2004 4:35PM

Everything else is circumstantial, whether others got their coins or not and has no real bearing. There isn't a shred of hard evidence that he actually shipped the coin to the buyer.

raycyca · December 31, 2004 9:18PM

I have only lost a songle item in 495 transactions from E-bay! That coin just happened to be from T*****, here on the PCGS boards. I requested and paid for the insurance. He forgot the insurance and that coin was lost. He stated he mailed it, which I'm sure he did but I never got the coin. He DID refund me the money, BUT, he has banned me from bidding on his auctions. I've had coins sent from members of these boards worth over $500 with only signature required- I requested insurance because I'm afraid something might happen. NEVER had a problem. I always ship items I sell via priority mail with insurance. If it's not over $50, I request signature confirmation. If it's more than I charge for shipping, I lose a small amount, but it's worth it. I usually charge $5 for the shipping and insurance and package the items really well. Haven't sold many coins but all the other dolls,glass etc. have never been broke/missing etc. Always insure items. I consider it MY responsibilty to get a coin to the buyer and it's my responsibility until the item gets to the buyer. Just my fifty cents. Ray

csw · December 31, 2004 11:50PM

True, it's circumstantial evidence, but what other kind is there in this situation? Circumstantial evidence is, of course, as admissible as direct evidence and the judge would go out of her way to instruct the jury that it is entitled to the same weight. Any half-way competent lawyer wins seller's case for him.

Interesting, though -- I'm thinking that last statement ('any halfway competent lawyer...') holds true for only small-value coins. If we start talking about a coin that's worth significant moolah, then I agree that the postal receipt carries less persuasuve weight. But I continue to believe that for a lousy hundred bucks, the evidence -- albeit circumstantial -- that the other recipients got their coins amounts to a pretty strong case for the seller. To disbelieve him, you'd have to accept that the seller deliberately mailed coins to the other people on the receipt but not to this particular buyer for the purpose of defrauding him. Seems a stretch to me.

-c-

ms70 · January 1, 2005 12:24AM

<< Everything else is circumstantial, whether others got their coins or not and has no real bearing. There isn't a shred of hard evidence that he actually shipped the coin to the buyer. >>

What's needed? A continuous video of the packing of the coin and driving it to the post office? Most people deal with issues like this on the
basis of what's reasonable. The courts also put most matters like this to a reasonable test. Hard core proof with video, witnesses, affidavits, and crime scene sketches are not needed.

TWODOGS · January 1, 2005 8:20AM

<< 

<< Everything else is circumstantial, whether others got their coins or not and has no real bearing. There isn't a shred of hard evidence that he actually shipped the coin to the buyer. >>

What's needed? A continuous video of the packing of the coin and driving it to the post office? Most people deal with issues like this on the
basis of what's reasonable. The courts also put most matters like this to a reasonable test. Hard core proof with video, witnesses, affidavits, and crime scene sketches are not needed. >>

Well, this has really gotten off track. I stand by my statement...there is no hard evidence that the coin has been shipped. True even when you buy insurance for the item, but...the P.O. stands behind their insurance policy. At least they have the two times in 5 years that I've filed a claim. That's having your behind covered.

I don't know what your time means to you. I have plenty of spare time on my hands, but can think of ways I'd much rather spend it than being in court or trying to battle someone over a coin that the Post Office failed to deliver. I sometimes lose 2 or 3 dollars on the shipping of heavier or more expensive items, but everything is insured. If someone doesn't like the fact that I include the cost of insurance in my shipping charges, they can bid on someone else's coins.

Coin not rcvd by Buyer - No Insurance - what do I do?

Comments

Leave a Comment