Here's how a British dealer graded a few certified coins.

python

I recently traded these coins to Lloyd Bennett, he had a slightly different opinion on the grades. Be very carefull paying over Spinks
EF value for slabbed mint state coins. I've seen similar opinions from other dealers.
ex ANACS MS63
ex ANACS MS64
ex PCGS MS64
ex PCGS MS64

Aethelred

Interesting! I like that 1/2d.

wybrit

Great post, python, and I agree with you 100%. I am pleased to see that Lloyd Bennett continues to hold up the standards I have come to expect from the UK. I am disappointed, as I know you are, that TPG MS64 grades are getting GEF or thereabouts.

That said, I have been frustrated with decreasing grading standards coming out of the UK of late from some other sellers there. Even some of the UK dealers I have had many dealing with in past years have been sending hairlined, overgraded or misclassified material this year. In the rush to capitalize on the uptick in the British coin market, I fear there has been much added "optimism". There has also been an epidemic of harshly cleaned coins - my number one reason for making returns.

I don't pretend to know the real reasons for the decline in grading reliability and I certainly am not painting all with the same brush, but I have never seen such poor material being passed off as EF or UNC as I have this past year.

(Edited to correct grammar - that's what you get when you cut and paste lines too much)

MacCrimmon

Interesting.

I would surmise that E7 material is not only difficult to assess, but that the American TPGs are quite inexperienced at this point on those issues.

I've never seen any of Bennett's material, so I can't comment, but this is all the more reason to be very careful of carte blanche acceptance of the TPG grades (relative to the U.S. coinage with which they do know strike, lustre, etc.). I particularly caution about the upcoming HWCA. I strongly recommend that if you are interested in a number of lots, have an experienced and trusted dealer and/or collector preview those lots (for a small fee if necessary) and let you know if they concur with the TPG's grades. Hey, sometimes, they are right, sometimes they are wrong. At least the price spreads on UK milled isn't 10-20x yet.......but don't hold you breath as true gem material 'bubbles to the top' over the next decade.

Eventually, either the current TPG leaders will gain consistency, or a new breed of specialist TPG will show up with vastly more experience and background and establish a truly reliable standard which both sides of the pond will be happy with.....eventually!

ajaan

The most accurate grading system is this:




$

shirohniichan

I would surmise that E7 material is not only difficult to assess, but that the American TPGs are quite inexperienced at this point on those issues.

Yea, verily.

I was disappointed to see a George V crown I purchased in an MS-64 slab (either ANACS or NGC-- I can't remember now) was AU-55 material. The seller kept pointing me back to the slab and telling me I was too harsh in my grading. I'm no expert in British coins, but I can tell luster (or the lack there of) and other characterisitcs without relying on a TPG's assigned grade.

I hope things turn around instead of continuing to slide.

rhound1977

1. Coin grading is a basis and or consensus of opinion and experience, subject to opinion by others, not an exact science.

2. Do we think that the TPG may be market grading?

3. I have seen some ugly coins in high end grades by TPG, but the technical or market grade may be correct.

4. I have seen and even own some fingerprinted coins in a TPG holder

5. I wonder if the coins were removed from the TPG holders?

I agree with Ajaan that the $$ also speaks.

coinkat

I guess I need to look at Spink again with respect to this. Keep in mind, grading is subjective and an opinion... it doesn't make the grader right, nor does it make him wrong. I do find it interesting that two Edward VII coins graded GEF or better that were graded 64.

MrEureka

I don't know enough about how coins are graded all over the world. Therefore, it's far better for me that TPG's apply the same standard - one I know - to all coins. Even when collectors in the coin's home country use different standards. At least I can figure out what the grade means, even if I can't always translate it into a foreign grading standard. For similar reasons, I'm glad that TPG slab inserts are written in English.

ajaan

wybrit brings up a good point. So much material sold by European coin dealers has been cleaned. When buying a certified coin you can pretty much be assured the coin is original and hasn't been 'monkeyed' with. There are some expections of course, but by looking at my BBed coins, I can tell the US TPGs are pretty good at keeping cleaned coins out of holders.

I have always equated a gEF coin from Britain to AU55-MS63 in US grading standards.

MacCrimmon

<< <i>The most accurate grading system is this: $ >>

Ajaan is a wise scribe.

Notice that the 1/2d, no matter how graded, is priced at about where a retail transaction would take place between two knowledgeable parties of British material in the U.S. or the U.K.

So, to summarise, the ha'penny is graded £58£ in the United Kingdom by an honest dealer, and it's graded $63$ in the United States by the TPGs........both grades will cost about $425 presently. If the dollar tumbles another 10%, it will still only cost £225 in the UK, but it will be closer to $465 taken from the American wallet, unless, of course, you are an arbitrageur of the FOREX markets.

syraq

The George III shilling is graded "gEF+" , previously a 64. The Eddie sixpence, also an ex-64, got an "almost mint state" grade. The halfpenny doesn't look unc from the scan, basically due to the lack of luster. Just my two drachmas on a very interesting subject, thanks for posting these python.

agraded

Apples and oranges. Some European dealers don't use the term Uncirculated for any coin struck for circulation, regardless of how well preserved it is. A couple of excerpts from Michael Gouby's website follow (illustrative only as I have not done business with him).

We do not like to use the grade UNC - uncirculated, for coins, as we believe that it is a misnomer as most currency coins had to be obtained from circulation i.e. banks, shops, etc. It is really only the coins taken from sets, etc. that can really be considered as uncirculated. So EF+ could be many people's idea of uncirculated.

Many UK dealer are very strongly opposed to US slabbed coins for a variety of reasons, some of which have nothing to do with the accuracy of the grading. Since the European standard is more conservative dealers in the UK use this as a reason to turn their noses up at the US grading system. But, as already pointed out, what really matters is the price as they often price their gEFs in the same range as our 58-62 coins.

My difficulty with European grading is that it is sometimes very hard to differentiate between a coin that is borderline Uncirculated (possibly mishandled or cleaned) and one that here in the US would be considered a stone cold original gem. Adding to the confussion, some UK dealers (especially on Ebay) have adopted some points of US grading and intermingled them with European grading and you don't know what you have. Certainly the US system is not perfect but it does weed out most problem coins. And, at least, attempts to address the difference between sliders and choice coins with with full luster.

Bob

agraded

This is a 1925 Halfcrown I found at Michael Coins website graded EF+. You can decide for yourself the actual grade, just showing what is on offer.

1925HalfcrownObvEF+