Sorry for the delay in reporting on this subject but this December is keeping me busier than I anticipated -- but I guess that's a good thing!
As mentioned earlier in the thread, Pinnacle sold this 1932-D to a collector during the 1995 Anaheim ANA Expo. Although it would be inappropriate to disclose the price, suffice to say it was at a figure significantly above the $10K that was estimated (but still at a great price compared to what it last sold at). That same collector owned the coin until its sale at the Atlanta ANA Auction.
Although I cannot dismiss the possibility that this coin once resided in an MS64 holder, I will disclose that we initially purchased it in its current holder and submit that we were very comfortable with its assigned grade.
Of course, the Washington quarter market was very different then and we certainly didn't think that it would remain the only MS66 some ten years later. We were then trading MS65 examples at well under $4,000! Regardless, we were thrilled for our customer -- and wish its new owner great success.
Todd L. Imhof Partner / Executive VP Heritage Auctions
MONEYLA wrote , "the madness, as you put it, returned to the coin market about two years and mainly because of the Registry competition " toche' Money ! you have convinced me that Pcgs needs to be impeccable in their grading . Your points are valued and well taken .
This has been generally a very nice read with some excellent points made. I would like to discuss a few of these and mention that wondercoin has done a terrific job sharing his insight.
As for comparing the '32-D with other issues, well, with the advent of the importance of the Registry we are seeing some comparisons that might not be obvious to those who do not specialize or study certain series. The absolute rarity of the coins might be quite different, but the condition census, and difficulty in breaking through each date's glass ceiling, can definitely make for strange bedfellows. Of course, I also would love to see an original roll of '32-Ds come up, but even in Wayte Raymond's time there were only a few rolls known of this date, as there were only a few rolls known of the '36-D (currently a vastly underrated coin in high grade). I own an original roll of '32 Washingtons, and many of the coins are gems. Perhaps 10-12 MS65 coins reside in the roll, along with 2 MS66 pieces while the remainder is nearly all MS63 and MS64. If the quality of a '32-D roll could even mildly approach the quality of my '32 roll then we would have something to marvel at.
The idea that a coin can jump two MS grades is actually seen quite often in this series. This is generally due to the artificially strict grading criteria given the series in the first few years of TPG. Remember, there weren't many Washingtons sent in at this time, especially of the non-key dates, as they simply weren't worth the money or enhanced liquidity. Therefore, those coins that were sent in were generally the best examples, and this helped to skew the grading standards to a higher level. These standards have since adjusted as more pieces have been submitted and, in the last two years, we have seen a significant relaxation in the PCGS MS68 grade for the silver Washington series. This is neither good nor bad for individual coins, it is a process of shaking out the multiple grading standards that have existed during TPG evolution and will likely continue for some time. An excellent example of this is a coin that wondercoin watched me sell in Baltimore last year. The coin began its PCGS graded life as an MS66, though even at the time of its initial PCGS grading it was harshly undergraded. It was then graded PCGS MS67 and ultimately PCGS MS68, all within two years. I bought the coin for $200, which was quite a bit for a common dated Washington, and then sold it for five figures. This is an example of someone who knew the series spotting a coin that a TPG had been harsh to and then resubmitting when the grades started to evolve. It was so nice that it was one of my top five Washington quarters. It is also currently owned by a board member and I will not divulge who it is.
Lastly, it is funny that wondercoin also mentioned the '54-S as an example of a nice coin with a poor strike. I have for years stated that the '54-S is probably the worst struck coin in the entire silver Washington series. These coins can come nearly mark-free, with terrific color and sometimes with wonderful, green and gold toning. However, the strike on this issue makes the coin look as though it was struck in oatmeal. PCGS has taken a more technical grading stance on this coin than on perhaps any other common dated silver Washington in the series, and there are absolutely stunning coins (minus a crisp strike) in MS65 and MS66 holders.
Everything is timing and your sale of those (3) coins for $15,000(?) as I recall (with your cost around $1k?) was a perfect example of that (and also why I said at the time to you to "take the money and run"). Same deal at last Baltimore show and you might be looking at half that amount, at best.
There was a short time around a year or so ago where NGC-MS68 silver Wash quarters (nearly any dates) were trading at upwards of $15,000 - $20,000. I believe when one of the (2) players who was seriously playing for these NGC coins elected to switch to PCGS coins, that window closed (practically overnight) and, of late, I have seen the same type NGC coins trading around $3k-$4k, give or take. But, again, before the "run up", the NGC-MS68 coins were trading around $2k - $2.5k. So, even at $4k now, they are still, historically, at a relatively solid level.
It was assumed that since the NGC-MS68 coins were trading at $15,000 - $20,000 for MS68's that PCGS-MS68 coins should be worth as much. Hence, a world class upgrader was perfectly content figuring Tom's very high end MS67++ Wash quarter (worth maybe $500+ in MS67) at $7,500 buy price, expecting an easy sale at $10,000 - $12,500 if the coin upgraded (which it did). When NGC-MS68 coins began trading (or being reserved) at around $4k or $5k, not $15k-$20k, a revision in PCGS-MS68 pricing also followed. Tom sold that coin at the peak of the chart on Wash quarters - again, great timing.
But, keep in mind, that these markets (classic or modern coins) can turn quickly - - tomorrow is another day and the MS68's may move much higher or lower. It should be noted that VERY FEW MS68 Wash quarters were slabbed by PCGS in 2004, especially in the last half of the year (possible none as I recall?).
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
With more than 50 MS65's graded and a lone MS66 at PCGS, this is more a function of "politics" than anything else. I'm sure that some of those 50+ coins are eligible for the 66 grade but PCGS is not ready to add another one quite yet.
Brian - What reasons could PCGS possibly have for caring how many 32-D quarters are in 66 holders?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Brian - What reasons could PCGS possibly have for caring how many 32-D quarters are in 66 holders? >>
Good question, Andy. Far too often I see the word "politics" and "PCGS" used in the same sentence. I find it hard to believe that politics play a role when PCGS graders look at a coin to grade. Might be a good topic for another thread...
....i think PCGS stands to make money with only 1 in 66 ; if i had a 65 that was a shot 66 , i'd send it in over and over in hopes of making a cool 20 grand or so if it upgraded ! The high rolling Quarter guys do this alot i believe. They can send a coin in half a dozen times until the PCGS graders get it right. In the meantime , PCGS is getting the grading fee's each and every time
Brian - What reasons could PCGS possibly have for caring how many 32-D quarters are in 66 holders? >>
Oh, lots of reasons;
What supercarcoins said applies.
Another important reason:
PCGS has made its marketing niche as the "quality and strict" grading service and needs to maintain its reputation by identifying key dates and showing the market "evidence" of its strictness.
<< <i>PCGS has made its marketing niche as the "quality and strict" grading service and needs to maintain its reputation by identifying key dates and showing the market "evidence" of its strictness. >>
This is probably the most concise statement of PCGS's business plan ever written. By "key dates" you have to include condition rarities. PCGS does an excellent job of creating the appearance of being the greatest grading service this way. And perception is 90% reality.
In response to the '32-D Washington subject matter, and why they (PCGS) won't give out more MS66 grades, here's my thoughts:
First and foremost, the 1932-D Washington quarter is the THE KEY to the series. I have collected this series for over 20 years....the '32-D is and always will be the "KING" of this series. With that in mind, I have no doubts that PCGS grades this coin much tougher than most other dates within the series. That is why PCGS has graded only 56 coins in MS65 (and how many of those are crackouts which hoped for upgrades?) and a single MS66 example. Personally, I think PCGS has a specific set of criteria they use when grading this rare coin.
As most Washington collectors know, this coin is typically found with unattractive toning, unsightly contact marks and is very seldom found with attractive, fresh mint luster, and I'm talking about mint state coins only. For this reason, MS65's are prohibitively difficult to make. I once owned what I thought was a very nice MS64, a possible shot coin, or so I thought. The coin lacked having good luster, even though is was a fine technical example of the date. Suffice to say, I tried 3 times to upgrade it and was "shot down" every time. In order for this coin to make MS65, in most cases (I won't be so bold as to say in all, becasue I have seen what I thought were some ugly MS65's) it must exhibit reasonably attractive toning, or very nice luster FOR THE DATE. '32-D's are very seldom found with blistering luster, and when they are found this way, more often than not, they usually have a lot of marks, which would prohibit a high mint-state grade. Technically, and again, I say this with caution, as I know this is not the case in every instance, MS65 examples are, in most cases, technically oustanding. In other words, the coin exhibits very few marks overall, very small contact marks in prime focal areas and and there can be no large scuffs or rubs anywhere on the coin for it to make MS65. I own what I believe to be one of the very nicest MS65's of this date I have ever seen. As for it tehcnical merits, I know it is cleaner than some of my best MS66's, I know it is. You can bet I will be trying the coin in the future, but I am in no hurry. Will there ever be another MS66 made? There's the million dollar question! I would almost certainly think so, but I have no clue when it will happen. It's only happened once since 1986...there is not a modern coin I know of which is tougher than the '32-D! Also, if a pop. 1 MS66 is worth 100K, then what happens to that value when it becomes a pop, 2?? You can't tell me that PCGS doesn't think about how that would effect the market. As far as I know, the individual who owns the MS66 doesn't plan on selling it. This much I can tell you for sure. If mine ever upgrades to MS66, I won't own it for very long...just long enough to enjoy it a little while, say I owned it, then give somebody else a chance to own it...and you can bet I love series as much as anyone, but if I could collect 80-100K for asingle coin, I could learn to "let go"! Regardless, the '32-D is a great coin and is the most challenging coin in the series, for anyone trying to put together a nice, mint state collection. Saying there are "TOUGH" is an understatement, in my opinion!
I was the one that sold the 32-d MS-66 at auction. I bought it off Tom Hawkins when he was at Pinnacle Coins. I'am not aware of who owned before myself. I did have a registry set started (Just 1932-1940) I was not interested paying some to the prices for the common dates just to have a high grade set. When I decided that I would not finish the set, then what do I want to do with it. I also had a MS-65 32-d. I knew it would be worth more if it were the only 66. What would happen if another 66 came out either NGC or PCGS? So talked with pinnacle and heritage to see what my best options were. So I put up for auction. Any questions let me know. Thanks digger 69
i was the one who consigned the 32-d MS66 in the heritage and it was not done through Pinnacle. I worked with Dustin Johnson @ Heritage myself. digger69
I was the person who sold the MS66 at auction in 2001. The "Mint" advertised a PCGS MS67 for sale(about 1998). I called to buy it, they said it was already sold. Still looking that one. digger69
Neat thread. The contrasting view points really give the collector a great deal of information reagarding the Washington Quarter series and 1932-D quarters as well.
I had the opportunity to inspect the 1932-D MS66 a couple weeks ago. It probably wouldn't be fair to prospective buyers, the seller, the auction company, etc. for me to comment on the coin until the auction has concluded, so I won't. Good luck to everyone though.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Is the Washington quarter series still experiencing rampant top pop & underpop grade inflation with multiple point upgrades? I noticed the MS65 1932-D pop was up to the mid 60's....
I took a look at my registry set the other day for the first time in a couple years - it appears nearly no neat top pop coins have been made in that time. The 1961-D or 62-D discussed in this thread is still pop 1 to this day. Coins like the 61-P - still pop 2 in MS67. No 1955-D in MS67 yet. No additional 32-S MS66 coins made in years and still pop 4, etc., etc., etc.
I believe just -1- MS68 Wash quarter slabbed in years (if there were -2-, I missed it) as well.
I can tell you one thing - I spent a ton of money over the years in submission fees to slab many of the neat low pop silver quarters I slabbed. My submission fees on silver Washington quarters in the past couple years has been -0-. Maybe if this Bowers collection sets world record prices across the board, I'll need to "dust off" the flips the coin have been resting in and get back to work!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I was the person who sold the MS66 at auction in 2001. The "Mint" advertised a PCGS MS67 for sale(about 1998). I called to buy it, they said it was already sold. Still looking that one. digger69 >>
Welcome aboard!
Since you once owned the coin, what did the coin look like in terms of quality; strike, condition and eye appeal? Was it brilliant or lustrous? Was there any toning? Were there marks in the focal areas of Washington's profile or the fields? Were you the one who saw the upgrade from MS64 to MS66? I ask these questions because no-one else can. Alluding to MS grades doesn't tell me much. If you made the upgrade then you must have a well trained eye for high quality coins!
On a side note, when it boils down to what's desirable, knowledgeable collectors who know a series well, will be looking for all 4 qualities in a coin, pure and simple! Beautiful toning is the 4th quality! Having a full strike, perhaps an EDS strike is the first and foremost important quality. The grade/condition, how markfree the coin, is the second most important followed by the overall eye appeal of the strike, condition, luster and toning. There are 6 qualities a coin can possess. But a coin can never have more than 4 unless it's a proof coin.
Regards, Leo
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
Leo: there's a high res pic in the Heritage archives. At first glance, with the caveat that I don't know much about Washingtons, it would appear the reeding mark on the eagle's wing may have limited the coin to MS64 the first time through ... and then upon reconsideration the toning won the day.
I should had known, just more of Heritage's "deer in the headlights" photography! How does one justifies bad photography for a $90,000 coin is beyond me! They obviously didn't want the internet viewers to see something whenever they post pictures like this. It's just unbelieveable! There does appear to be an X mark of some sort in the focal area as well. Can't really see much of anything on the coin, thanks to Heritage. Thanks for the inf TDN. Perhaps this digger69 gentleman can gives us more inf.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
There was wild applause in the auction room for this lot. A record for a Washington Quarter. A few Buffs went for more but for them $100K seems so....ordinary, they didn't get much ovation.
David - Congrats on picking up that pop 2/0 1937 DDO MS66 quarter. I own the other MS66 coin - having paid well over 2x what you just bought yours for. I know that your coin had also been offered for nearly 2x what you paid for it around the time it got sold and was placed in this quarter set. Now that both coins are in strong PCGS registry set holders hands, perhaps you will see great appreciation on your coin in the next few years and I can, one day, break even on my buy (putting aside lost interest which I will never see).
I was surprised you did not win that 32-P MS67 pop 2? At $21,850, I thought it was a fair price. To be honest, I felt my coin was worth closer to $30,000+ - $40,000+ as a pop 1 last month.
The 42-S at $18,975 - around the same price it fetched when I consigned it to the last auction it sold at. Perhaps a couple thousand more this time.
The 43-S at $23,000 - maybe a 50% move up from last sale price at auction (Heritage as I recall)?
The 50 D/S - nice strong level on a 65 coin at $6,900. I have an MS66 and the pop 1/0 MS67 in my set. Whatever I lost on the 37 DDO, I should make back even more on the 50 D/S MS67 - which is why you simply have to "pay up" if you want to build a nice collection. Sure, you will win on some and lose on others - the nature of the beast.
The 61-D at $18,975. As I recall, I had to outbid a "world class" upgrader at an auction to originally win that coin for under $2,000. Luckily, Washington quarters were simply not his series so he mispriced what an MS67 would be worth. I think the coin also saw around a 33% move up from the prior auction appearance a few years back.
Most other coins - about what you might expect in prices - David do you agree? That 32-S in NGC-MS66 at only $10k was, IMHO, more about the coin than the value of a strong MS66 specimen. A nice coin should be about $25k or higher wouldn't you say David? And look at the prices realized for the NGC-MS68 coins vs. PCGS-MS68 coins? I wonder if prices were even softer on the NGC coins as bidders might have known Bowers tried to cross some or all of the NGC coins and failed? This is the heavy price you pay in exchange for the coin you make (32-P) - which probably did add at least $10k to the final hammer price on the 32-P I suspect
1932-D - so who won it? Collector or dealer? Anyone know?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I'm not sure which one of the 37 DDOs was which. Didn't you have one of the 37 DDOs on Ebay in 2005 for $10,500? I was offered the other for $30,000 that year, presumably by the same person you're referring to. I wasn't planning to go very much higher on my bid for it.
The 32-P looked very nice, but I hadn't seen it in hand, and wasn't willing to go over $16,000 for it (which I thought would have been enough).
There was some strong, active money bidding for these, and it was pretty clear I was going to get outbid if I'd stayed in the game. None of the opposition felt tired.
The Washington silvers hadn't been particularly hot recently, so I guess this activity reinforces Laura's contention that the market is still very alive and ablaze for the very best pieces, of whatever series before the clad coins.
Congrats on the pop 1 50 D/S! That M65 took off at the end, and disabused my plan to steal it for under 4k!
Did you get any of the pop 1s? I thought the 42-S and 43-S looked pretty good from a distance, and the 61-D seemed nice for the year. I passed altogether on the 54-S, as did most of the rest of us.
David: No - my 37 DDO MS66 was slabbed years ago (shortly after the original MS66 coin was graded, which is the coin I believe you ended up with) and then a deal was struck with me acquriing my coin. So, if a coin was on ebay last year, or whenever, it would have had to have been the coin you purchased yesterday (or else there is a pop 3 out there).
I happened to be on the phone when the 1932 quarters were auctioned off, but, that was the extent of my interest in the auction. I did not even stick on the phone to hear what anything past 1932 sold at. I lot viewed just a handful of the coins as well - mostly the coins I had originally slabbed and sold off in order to see them again (e.g. 42-S MS68, 54-D MS67, 61-D MS67, etc.)
So, you let some important coins go yesterday which could have helped your #1 set - are you also mainly taking a break from seriously pursuing top pop silver quarters?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
The problem was that I didn't know this was coming: a whole group of them right around tax time!
I simply didn't have the resources to compete, and had no gauge of the determination and motives of who else might be bidding. My recourse was to simply set my maximums, and let nature take its course. I might have stretched for one, but didn't know where to take a stand in a field of several.
And as we all know in numismatics, there's never any such thing as a last chance, and there's no guarantee that you can't get it cheaper later on.
Once again wall street is talking about numismatic portfolios but even the hint of "mismanaged risk" would scuttle those plans.
Wall Street can accept market forces, but wall street will not tolerate scandal, deception, errors in accounting or grading.
Just look at the stock market carnage after companies report irregularities in their books... so imagine the carnage if it was revealed that a major grading service which was responsible for the "security" of large portfolios had a problem with its grading?
This quote from back in the 2004 portion of this thread is irony at its best. Today the WS boys have so much deception in their accounting (following Sarbanes-Oxley no less) and just plain fraud, that a comparison to coin gradeflation is comical. Wall Street banks and mortgage lenders as well as the FED are today the very definition of mis-management.
My quote from 2004 still requires no answer today imo. I think the priniples of "Einstein's" Resubmission Theory are still alive and well. Sorry Andy.
With more than 50 MS65's graded and a lone MS66 at PCGS, this is more a function of "politics" than anything else. I'm sure that some of those 50+ coins are eligible for the 66 grade but PCGS is not ready to add another one quite yet. .......... Brian - What reasons could PCGS possibly have for caring how many 32-D quarters are in 66 holders? .......hint.....look to the 2003 MS70 and 1963 PF70 Lincoln cents.
Comments
As mentioned earlier in the thread, Pinnacle sold this 1932-D to a collector during the 1995 Anaheim ANA Expo. Although it would be inappropriate to disclose the price, suffice to say it was at a figure significantly above the $10K that was estimated (but still at a great price compared to what it last sold at). That same collector owned the coin until its sale at the Atlanta ANA Auction.
Although I cannot dismiss the possibility that this coin once resided in an MS64 holder, I will disclose that we initially purchased it in its current holder and submit that we were very comfortable with its assigned grade.
Of course, the Washington quarter market was very different then and we certainly didn't think that it would remain the only MS66 some ten years later. We were then trading MS65 examples at well under $4,000! Regardless, we were thrilled for our customer -- and wish its new owner great success.
Partner / Executive VP
Heritage Auctions
"the madness, as you put it, returned to the coin market about two years and mainly because of the Registry competition "
toche' Money ! you have convinced me that Pcgs needs to be impeccable in their grading . Your points are valued and well taken .
As for comparing the '32-D with other issues, well, with the advent of the importance of the Registry we are seeing some comparisons that might not be obvious to those who do not specialize or study certain series. The absolute rarity of the coins might be quite different, but the condition census, and difficulty in breaking through each date's glass ceiling, can definitely make for strange bedfellows. Of course, I also would love to see an original roll of '32-Ds come up, but even in Wayte Raymond's time there were only a few rolls known of this date, as there were only a few rolls known of the '36-D (currently a vastly underrated coin in high grade). I own an original roll of '32 Washingtons, and many of the coins are gems. Perhaps 10-12 MS65 coins reside in the roll, along with 2 MS66 pieces while the remainder is nearly all MS63 and MS64. If the quality of a '32-D roll could even mildly approach the quality of my '32 roll then we would have something to marvel at.
The idea that a coin can jump two MS grades is actually seen quite often in this series. This is generally due to the artificially strict grading criteria given the series in the first few years of TPG. Remember, there weren't many Washingtons sent in at this time, especially of the non-key dates, as they simply weren't worth the money or enhanced liquidity. Therefore, those coins that were sent in were generally the best examples, and this helped to skew the grading standards to a higher level. These standards have since adjusted as more pieces have been submitted and, in the last two years, we have seen a significant relaxation in the PCGS MS68 grade for the silver Washington series. This is neither good nor bad for individual coins, it is a process of shaking out the multiple grading standards that have existed during TPG evolution and will likely continue for some time. An excellent example of this is a coin that wondercoin watched me sell in Baltimore last year. The coin began its PCGS graded life as an MS66, though even at the time of its initial PCGS grading it was harshly undergraded. It was then graded PCGS MS67 and ultimately PCGS MS68, all within two years. I bought the coin for $200, which was quite a bit for a common dated Washington, and then sold it for five figures. This is an example of someone who knew the series spotting a coin that a TPG had been harsh to and then resubmitting when the grades started to evolve. It was so nice that it was one of my top five Washington quarters. It is also currently owned by a board member and I will not divulge who it is.
Lastly, it is funny that wondercoin also mentioned the '54-S as an example of a nice coin with a poor strike. I have for years stated that the '54-S is probably the worst struck coin in the entire silver Washington series. These coins can come nearly mark-free, with terrific color and sometimes with wonderful, green and gold toning. However, the strike on this issue makes the coin look as though it was struck in oatmeal. PCGS has taken a more technical grading stance on this coin than on perhaps any other common dated silver Washington in the series, and there are absolutely stunning coins (minus a crisp strike) in MS65 and MS66 holders.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Everything is timing and your sale of those (3) coins for $15,000(?) as I recall (with your cost around $1k?) was a perfect example of that (and also why I said at the time to you to "take the money and run"). Same deal at last Baltimore show and you might be looking at half that amount, at best.
There was a short time around a year or so ago where NGC-MS68 silver Wash quarters (nearly any dates) were trading at upwards of $15,000 - $20,000. I believe when one of the (2) players who was seriously playing for these NGC coins elected to switch to PCGS coins, that window closed (practically overnight) and, of late, I have seen the same type NGC coins trading around $3k-$4k, give or take. But, again, before the "run up", the NGC-MS68 coins were trading around $2k - $2.5k. So, even at $4k now, they are still, historically, at a relatively solid level.
It was assumed that since the NGC-MS68 coins were trading at $15,000 - $20,000 for MS68's that PCGS-MS68 coins should be worth as much. Hence, a world class upgrader was perfectly content figuring Tom's very high end MS67++ Wash quarter (worth maybe $500+ in MS67) at $7,500 buy price, expecting an easy sale at $10,000 - $12,500 if the coin upgraded (which it did). When NGC-MS68 coins began trading (or being reserved) at around $4k or $5k, not $15k-$20k, a revision in PCGS-MS68 pricing also followed. Tom sold that coin at the peak of the chart on Wash quarters - again, great timing.
But, keep in mind, that these markets (classic or modern coins) can turn quickly - - tomorrow is another day and the MS68's may move much higher or lower. It should be noted that VERY FEW MS68 Wash quarters were slabbed by PCGS in 2004, especially in the last half of the year (possible none as I recall?).
Wondercoin
Rick
" Definitely some 5 star post here! Thanks to everyone who shared their knowledge with the rest of us." <<<
You started a good one, Rick!
Brian - What reasons could PCGS possibly have for caring how many 32-D quarters are in 66 holders?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Brian - What reasons could PCGS possibly have for caring how many 32-D quarters are in 66 holders? >>
Good question, Andy. Far too often I see the word "politics" and "PCGS" used in the same sentence. I find it hard to believe that politics play a role when PCGS graders look at a coin to grade. Might be a good topic for another thread...
Rick
if i had a 65 that was a shot 66 , i'd send it in over and over in hopes of making a cool 20 grand or so if it upgraded !
The high rolling Quarter guys do this alot i believe. They can send a coin in half a dozen times until the PCGS graders get it right. In the meantime , PCGS is getting the grading fee's each and every time
Oh, lots of reasons;
What supercarcoins said applies.
Another important reason:
PCGS has made its marketing niche as the "quality and strict" grading service and needs to maintain its reputation by identifying key dates and showing the market "evidence" of its strictness.
<< <i>PCGS has made its marketing niche as the "quality and strict" grading service and needs to maintain its reputation by identifying key dates and showing the market "evidence" of its strictness. >>
This is probably the most concise statement of PCGS's business plan ever written. By "key dates" you have to include condition rarities. PCGS does an excellent job of creating the appearance of being the greatest grading service this way. And perception is 90% reality.
Edit: sp
First and foremost, the 1932-D Washington quarter is the THE KEY to the series. I have collected this series for over 20 years....the '32-D is and always will be the "KING" of this series. With that in mind, I have no doubts that PCGS grades this coin much tougher than most other dates within the series. That is why PCGS has graded only 56 coins in MS65 (and how many of those are crackouts which hoped for upgrades?) and a single MS66 example. Personally, I think PCGS has a specific set of criteria they use when grading this rare coin.
As most Washington collectors know, this coin is typically found with unattractive toning, unsightly contact marks and is very seldom found with attractive, fresh mint luster, and I'm talking about mint state coins only. For this reason, MS65's are prohibitively difficult to make. I once owned what I thought was a very nice MS64, a possible shot coin, or so I thought. The coin lacked having good luster, even though is was a fine technical example of the date. Suffice to say, I tried 3 times to upgrade it and was "shot down" every time. In order for this coin to make MS65, in most cases (I won't be so bold as to say in all, becasue I have seen what I thought were some ugly MS65's) it must exhibit reasonably attractive toning, or very nice luster FOR THE DATE. '32-D's are very seldom found with blistering luster, and when they are found this way, more often than not, they usually have a lot of marks, which would prohibit a high mint-state grade. Technically, and again, I say this with caution, as I know this is not the case in every instance, MS65 examples are, in most cases, technically oustanding. In other words, the coin exhibits very few marks overall, very small contact marks in prime focal areas and and there can be no large scuffs or rubs anywhere on the coin for it to make MS65. I own what I believe to be one of the very nicest MS65's of this date I have ever seen. As for it tehcnical merits, I know it is cleaner than some of my best MS66's, I know it is. You can bet I will be trying the coin in the future, but I am in no hurry. Will there ever be another MS66 made? There's the million dollar question! I would almost certainly think so, but I have no clue when it will happen. It's only happened once since 1986...there is not a modern coin I know of which is tougher than the '32-D! Also, if a pop. 1 MS66 is worth 100K, then what happens to that value when it becomes a pop, 2?? You can't tell me that PCGS doesn't think about how that would effect the market. As far as I know, the individual who owns the MS66 doesn't plan on selling it. This much I can tell you for sure. If mine ever upgrades to MS66, I won't own it for very long...just long enough to enjoy it a little while, say I owned it, then give somebody else a chance to own it...and you can bet I love series as much as anyone, but if I could collect 80-100K for asingle coin, I could learn to "let go"!
Tom Schiera
Thanks
digger 69
digger69
digger69
digger69
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I had the opportunity to inspect the 1932-D MS66 a couple weeks ago. It probably wouldn't be fair to prospective buyers, the seller, the auction company, etc. for me to comment on the coin until the auction has concluded, so I won't. Good luck to everyone though.
Wondercoin
I believe just -1- MS68 Wash quarter slabbed in years (if there were -2-, I missed it) as well.
I can tell you one thing - I spent a ton of money over the years in submission fees to slab many of the neat low pop silver quarters I slabbed. My submission fees on silver Washington quarters in the past couple years has been -0-. Maybe if this Bowers collection sets world record prices across the board, I'll need to "dust off" the flips the coin have been resting in and get back to work!
Wondercoin
<< <i>I was the person who sold the MS66 at auction in 2001. The "Mint" advertised a PCGS MS67 for sale(about 1998). I called to buy it, they said it was already sold. Still looking that one.
digger69 >>
Welcome aboard!
Since you once owned the coin, what did the coin look like in terms of quality; strike, condition and eye appeal? Was it brilliant or lustrous?
Was there any toning? Were there marks in the focal areas of Washington's profile or the fields? Were you the one who saw the upgrade from MS64 to MS66? I ask these questions because no-one else can. Alluding to MS grades doesn't tell me much. If you made the upgrade then you must have a well trained eye for high quality coins!
On a side note, when it boils down to what's desirable, knowledgeable collectors who know a series well, will be looking for all 4 qualities in a coin, pure and simple! Beautiful toning is the 4th quality! Having a full strike, perhaps an EDS strike is the first and foremost important quality. The grade/condition, how markfree the coin, is the second most important followed by the overall eye appeal of the strike, condition, luster and toning. There are 6 qualities a coin can possess. But a coin can never have more than 4 unless it's a proof coin.
Regards, Leo
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
How does one justifies bad photography for a $90,000 coin is beyond me! They obviously didn't want the internet viewers to see something whenever they post pictures like this. It's just unbelieveable!
There does appear to be an X mark of some sort in the focal area as well. Can't really see much of anything on the coin, thanks to Heritage. Thanks for the inf TDN. Perhaps this digger69 gentleman can gives us more inf.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Wondercoin
<< <i>Can you tell from the auction if an actual bid has been placed yet? >>
Can one ever tell?
Wondercoin
I picked up a pop 2 1937 DDO, but otherwise I got shut out.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I was surprised you did not win that 32-P MS67 pop 2? At $21,850, I thought it was a fair price. To be honest, I felt my coin was worth closer to $30,000+ - $40,000+ as a pop 1 last month.
The 42-S at $18,975 - around the same price it fetched when I consigned it to the last auction it sold at. Perhaps a couple thousand more this time.
The 43-S at $23,000 - maybe a 50% move up from last sale price at auction (Heritage as I recall)?
The 50 D/S - nice strong level on a 65 coin at $6,900. I have an MS66 and the pop 1/0 MS67 in my set. Whatever I lost on the 37 DDO, I should make back even more on the 50 D/S MS67 - which is why you simply have to "pay up" if you want to build a nice collection. Sure, you will win on some and lose on others - the nature of the beast.
The 61-D at $18,975. As I recall, I had to outbid a "world class" upgrader at an auction to originally win that coin for under $2,000. Luckily, Washington quarters were simply not his series so he mispriced what an MS67 would be worth. I think the coin also saw around a 33% move up from the prior auction appearance a few years back.
Most other coins - about what you might expect in prices - David do you agree? That 32-S in NGC-MS66 at only $10k was, IMHO, more about the coin than the value of a strong MS66 specimen. A nice coin should be about $25k or higher wouldn't you say David? And look at the prices realized for the NGC-MS68 coins vs. PCGS-MS68 coins? I wonder if prices were even softer on the NGC coins as bidders might have known Bowers tried to cross some or all of the NGC coins and failed? This is the heavy price you pay in exchange for the coin you make (32-P) - which probably did add at least $10k to the final hammer price on the 32-P I suspect
1932-D - so who won it? Collector or dealer? Anyone know?
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
I'm not sure which one of the 37 DDOs was which. Didn't you have one of the 37 DDOs on Ebay in 2005 for $10,500? I was offered the other for $30,000 that year, presumably by the same person you're referring to. I wasn't planning to go very much higher on my bid for it.
The 32-P looked very nice, but I hadn't seen it in hand, and wasn't willing to go over $16,000 for it (which I thought would have been enough).
There was some strong, active money bidding for these, and it was pretty clear I was going to get outbid if I'd stayed in the game. None of the opposition felt tired.
The Washington silvers hadn't been particularly hot recently, so I guess this activity reinforces Laura's contention that the market is still very alive and ablaze for the very best pieces, of whatever series before the clad coins.
Congrats on the pop 1 50 D/S! That M65 took off at the end, and disabused my plan to steal it for under 4k!
Did you get any of the pop 1s? I thought the 42-S and 43-S looked pretty good from a distance, and the 61-D seemed nice for the year. I passed altogether on the 54-S, as did most of the rest of us.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I happened to be on the phone when the 1932 quarters were auctioned off, but, that was the extent of my interest in the auction. I did not even stick on the phone to hear what anything past 1932 sold at. I lot viewed just a handful of the coins as well - mostly the coins I had originally slabbed and sold off in order to see them again (e.g. 42-S MS68, 54-D MS67, 61-D MS67, etc.)
So, you let some important coins go yesterday which could have helped your #1 set - are you also mainly taking a break from seriously pursuing top pop silver quarters?
Wondercoin
I simply didn't have the resources to compete, and had no gauge of the determination and motives of who else might be bidding. My recourse was to simply set my maximums, and let nature take its course. I might have stretched for one, but didn't know where to take a stand in a field of several.
And as we all know in numismatics, there's never any such thing as a last chance, and there's no guarantee that you can't get it cheaper later on.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Wall Street can accept market forces, but wall street will not tolerate scandal, deception, errors in accounting or grading.
Just look at the stock market carnage after companies report irregularities in their books... so imagine the carnage if it was revealed that a major grading service which was responsible for the "security" of large portfolios had a problem with its grading?
This quote from back in the 2004 portion of this thread is irony at its best. Today the WS boys have so much deception in their accounting (following Sarbanes-Oxley no less) and just plain fraud, that a comparison to coin gradeflation is comical. Wall Street banks and mortgage lenders as well as the FED are today the very definition of mis-management.
My quote from 2004 still requires no answer today imo. I think the priniples of "Einstein's" Resubmission Theory are still alive and well. Sorry Andy.
With more than 50 MS65's graded and a lone MS66 at PCGS, this is more a function of "politics" than anything else. I'm sure that some of those 50+ coins are eligible for the 66 grade but PCGS is not ready to add another one quite yet. .......... Brian - What reasons could PCGS possibly have for caring how many 32-D quarters are in 66 holders? .......hint.....look to the 2003 MS70 and 1963 PF70 Lincoln cents.
roadrunner