My position on Classics
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have some friends here that collect classics. At times, one or more may have been offended by what appear to be anti-classic remarks made by me on this forum. I would like my friends to remain friends and mean no disrespect or offense. Frankly, some of the sharpest collectors I have met (in person and on the internet) are classic collectors. Guys like coinguy1, michael, and coinlieutenant are unmatched in collecting acumen. My guess is that if they had the resources or chose to so use the resources, they might be as revered as Supercoin with his Ike dollars.
As a collectible, classic coins (which I will define here as pre-1950), are moderately interesting to me. It is not a financial issue. If my resources were severely constrained, I would much rather collect AU Franklins than XF Liberty Nickels. Coins interest me primarily for their precious metal content and so to me, a worn Buffalo does not have much going for it. Condition was, is, and always will be a primary concern.
I have nothing against collectors pursuing their collecting interests, whatever they may be. If I had to compete with the likes of coinguy1, michael, and coinlieutenant for coins that I seek, they would no doubt eat me up alive. I am amazed at the quality of the coins michael and coinlieutenant post here. They are gorgeous (in the case of coinlieutenant) and perfect (in the case of michael). coinguy1 posts pics rarely, but he probably understands more about the minting process than the folks that run the mint. They seek excellence in the coins they collect, and they find it.
What I do not like about classics is the promotional aspects, centered around the registry. Dealers, who are borderline unscrupulous, promote series of common coins, and in a primarily dealer-dealer market which causes prices to rise abnormally, prey on the ego of collectors of classic coins and are able to extract what is in my mind an ungodly amount of money for a coin that is surrounded by plastic that says it is a hair better than the 800 sitting next to it. It's one thing, IMO, to have the finest 1972 Type 2 Ike Dollar. You could probably put the contenders in one room and have a group of interested collectors quickly decide which one is the best--it's probably been done. You do not need plastic to tell you which coins are the best. You cannot do the same with the finest 1881-S MS65 Morgan Dollar or MS65 Generic $20 Saint; there probably is not a closet large enough to hold all of the contending coins.
In closing. I like classic collectors, I like the collection of classics, but I do not like dealers preying on the power of the plastic to gouge collectors for coins that are not really rare. Interestingly, when a collector like coinlieutenant sells a like coin "for an obscene profit", I do not mind it one bit.
Full disclosure: I collect classic coins by type and have an incomplete set by denomination.
Al H.
As a collectible, classic coins (which I will define here as pre-1950), are moderately interesting to me. It is not a financial issue. If my resources were severely constrained, I would much rather collect AU Franklins than XF Liberty Nickels. Coins interest me primarily for their precious metal content and so to me, a worn Buffalo does not have much going for it. Condition was, is, and always will be a primary concern.
I have nothing against collectors pursuing their collecting interests, whatever they may be. If I had to compete with the likes of coinguy1, michael, and coinlieutenant for coins that I seek, they would no doubt eat me up alive. I am amazed at the quality of the coins michael and coinlieutenant post here. They are gorgeous (in the case of coinlieutenant) and perfect (in the case of michael). coinguy1 posts pics rarely, but he probably understands more about the minting process than the folks that run the mint. They seek excellence in the coins they collect, and they find it.
What I do not like about classics is the promotional aspects, centered around the registry. Dealers, who are borderline unscrupulous, promote series of common coins, and in a primarily dealer-dealer market which causes prices to rise abnormally, prey on the ego of collectors of classic coins and are able to extract what is in my mind an ungodly amount of money for a coin that is surrounded by plastic that says it is a hair better than the 800 sitting next to it. It's one thing, IMO, to have the finest 1972 Type 2 Ike Dollar. You could probably put the contenders in one room and have a group of interested collectors quickly decide which one is the best--it's probably been done. You do not need plastic to tell you which coins are the best. You cannot do the same with the finest 1881-S MS65 Morgan Dollar or MS65 Generic $20 Saint; there probably is not a closet large enough to hold all of the contending coins.
In closing. I like classic collectors, I like the collection of classics, but I do not like dealers preying on the power of the plastic to gouge collectors for coins that are not really rare. Interestingly, when a collector like coinlieutenant sells a like coin "for an obscene profit", I do not mind it one bit.
Full disclosure: I collect classic coins by type and have an incomplete set by denomination.
Al H.
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I plan to have " fun " at the Fun Show this year. When I am in front of an obviously unscrupulous dealers table and he asks me how I'm doing. My answer will be " My balls hurt ". I think he will get the message and leave me alone. There are not that many unscrupulous classic dealers, and it only takes a short amount of time in collecting to realize who they are. I like to "put their names up in lights", because they make my balls hurt !!
Denny Crane
And You Can Quote Me ! Denny Crane !
Every time I read a thread about the "one point" difference in "moderns" resulting in silly premiums (sometimes hundreds of dollars or even a few thousand dollars) and being nearly impossible to tell the difference at times between the (2) grades - I just think back to that 11/02 Santa Clara Heritage sale where that 1910(s) Lincoln cent in ICG-MS67RD sold for around $3,000 as EVERY WORLD CLASS LINCOLN CENT UPGRADER IN THE COUNTRY who attended the sale (obviously) graded the coin PCGS-MS66RD (a couple thousand dollar coin). I made a special trip up there as well, lot viewed the sale and also did not bid on the CLASSIC LINCOLN CENT. It appears a collector bought the coin, sent it to PCGS and it crossed as a PCGS-MS67RD. he put the coin up on ebay (with an opening bid at a $1 or something like that with no reserve). THE COIN RESOLD ON EBAY FOR AROUND $36,000 (ROUGHLY $33,000 MORE THAN THE AUCTION PRICE) AND PERHAPS THE STRONGEST WORLD CLASS LINCOLN CENT GRADER IN THE COUNTRY WHO LET THE COIN GO AT $3,000 AT AUCTION (I even believe he may have been the underbidder at the auction to the collector) WON IT ON EBAY!! WHY? BECAUSE HE HAD THE COIN SOLD FOR A HUGE PROFIT - MY BEST GUESS - AT LEAST $50,000!! And, the coin did sell shortly following the ebay sale for the new even higher level. Additionally, when the WORLD CLASS LINCOLN GRADER re-examined the coin this time in the PCGS holder, I believe it was his belief this was perhaps the NICEST 1910(s) Lincoln cent KNOWN!!! (3) sales on the same CLASSIC coin for $3,000, $36,000 and then roughly $50,000 - just a switch of labels!! I believe roughly a $47,000 spread between the original auction level of $3,000 at the Heritage sale and the resale of this CLASSIC LINCOLN CENT. Isn't it a bit silly to question why some people are paying $200 or even $2,000 for early Mint State Memorial cents and yet never have threads on "$3,000" "classic Lincolns" that resell for roughly $50,000 (AND, DON'T THINK FOR A MOMENT THAT THE BUYER OF THAT $50,000 LINCOLN CENT WAS A FOOL - I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF HE COULD RESELL THE COIN TODAY FOR A NICE PROFIT)!!
Merry Christmas to all.
Wondercoin
books written about every aspect of them. It must always gives you a warm fuzzy when you go
to a coin shop or a show and see lots of people competing for the same coins. It's obvious that
you're on the right track and that you are pursuing something of lasting value.
Those who say that classis are hard to grade and tend to be much more expensive than the
coins which we enjoy collecting are simply missing the point. The classics can be just as much
fun and who needs high grade coins. Circulated coins are desirable in their own right and you
can find the great rarities as affordable coins if you must have a complete set. Remember that
many of the modern sets must be completed with circulated coins and the rarities are equally un-
affordable if you don't have enough money. This is one place where the classics actually surpass
the moderns: there are cull and ugly rarities if you can't afford a nice example. When was the last
time you heard of a rare modern with a hole in it?
Classics also give you a great floor value in case the markets tank because too few newbies
make the transition to the older coins. Where a $30,000 collection of memorial cents may contain
less than a dollars worth of copper and zinc, a similar collection of Barber dimes will contain several
dollars worth of silver.
One has to have great respect for those who collect such coins and they really should be encouraged
rather than patronized. Collect what you like and don't worry about the things we modern collecors
say.
The same logic can easily be applied to Moderns, and far more frequently imo. One could easily put all the contenders for finest 1881-s silver dollars (maybe 20 pieces) and experts could would likely agree pick the best one. Making an analogy to all the MS65 1881-s to a pop type Ike is ludicrous. No different than comparing all the MS65 1971-s Ikes and having the best one picked. An irrelevant task. What if 100% of the population of 71-s Ikes were sent in. It would take probably longer to pick out the best MS65's than it would the best MS65 1881-s Morgan. Just that most Morgans get sent in for grading....not so for many modersn. Or how about comparing the top 1901-s quarters and picking the best. It could be done in 5 minutes considering there are only a few contendors. Let's look at all the MS65 flat band 1945 dimes and pick the best one. On second thought, I'll watch grass grow.
roadrunner
...
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
lectors. Perhaps they see safety in numbers or perhaps it's because we haven't called them fools or thieves.
If anyone is of a mind to do some trash-talking perhaps now would be a good time to rile 'em up.
make the transition to the older coins. Where a $30,000 collection of memorial cents may contain
less than a dollars worth of copper and zinc, a similar collection of Barber dimes will contain several
dollars worth of silver."
Do collectors of higher grade classics ever seriously consider the bullion value of their holdings? I don't think so. I certainly don't. The bullion value of a collection of Barber dimes that is "similar" to the $30,000 collection of memorial cents you speak of is of no significance. Now, if you compare a $30 collection of memorial cents comprised of 30 pieces to a $30 collection of 30 Barber dimes, yes, we have a definite "floor value" disparity. It's 30 cents vs. about $15 ($7/oz. silver spot).
If the "floor value" of my scarce, higher grade Barber dimes were to become important to me, I'm getting into beanie babies. At least I can eat the beans when nobody wants my babies for what they are as collectibles.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
-KHayse
-KHayse
You can certainly rewrite what I wrote, substitute the word "classic" for "modern", make other similar substitutions, and feed my words right back to me...to a point. At some places, however, it breaks down.
Drawing the parallel between Supercoin and his IKEs and Cardinal and his early dollars is absurd. If you had to, gun to your head, trade your collection for either Supercoin's IKEs or Cardinal's early dollars, which would you choose? No offense, but I do not even know who Supercoin is, nor do I know of his IKEs. Admittedly, it might be because I hang around the wrong crowd.
Coinlieutenant sells classic coins for a small profit, not an obscene one. Ask him, and he will tell you. Russ sells modern coins he finds for (occasionally) obscene profits. Ask him, he will tell you. He also is well-known for selling the famous flea market Morgan for an obscene profit, but I do not know the details of that transaction.
Most coins that I collect have far fewer than 800 extant in all grades, let alone 800 in the next grade down. When the original mintage of a coin is 10,000, the largest possible surviving population is, obviously 10,000. When the original mintage of a coin is 2,000,000,000 (like the 60's Lincoln discussed in my modern thread), the largest possible surviving population is...
Finally, while I have heard of dealers gouging classic collectors who need low pop/high grade coins for their registry sets, I do not play that game, so I have not been subject to it. The dealers from whom I buy my coins have told me repeatedly, and lived up to it, that if I ever want to rid myself of a coin they sold me, they want it back. From what I have seen and heard here of the modern coin dealers, that might not be the case. There was a whole thread not quite a month ago concerning a high profile modern dealer who would not even return calls or emails from a customer who wanted out of the coins. Perhaps that anecdote was an exception, rather than the rule.
<< <i>This thread really highlights another real difference between classic collectors and the rest of us; it's nearly three hours old and there has been very little response from them. They simply aren't as defensive as we "regular" col-
lectors. Perhaps they see safety in numbers or perhaps it's because we haven't called them fools or thieves.
If anyone is of a mind to do some trash-talking perhaps now would be a good time to rile 'em up.
Then again, why would "classic" collectors (or ancient or world or token collectors for that matter) have to defend themselves? Collect what you enjoy and learn about numismatics along the way . . . and don't bother with others who are critical of what you collect. I have met more people who know more about the hobby and collect state quarters than those who collect proof type US gold and rely on plastic for their education. It's about passion and drive, not whether or not you collect what others like.
Lane
P.S. Keets . . . classis is pre-1950? Dang! What's a Roman denarius . . . pre-historic?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
Drawing the parallel between Supercoin and his IKEs and Cardinal and his early dollars is absurd. If you had to, gun to your head, trade your collection for either Supercoin's IKEs or Cardinal's early dollars, which would you choose? No offense, but I do not even know who Supercoin is, nor do I know of his IKEs. Admittedly, it might be because I hang around the wrong crowd. >>
Who wouldn't take Cardinal's coins if given the choice? Most are far rarer and perhaps all
are far more valuable.
What's far more interesting is that many classic collectors would rather have a cull/ AG buffalo
nickel collection than Supercoin's Ikes.
<< <i>
Finally, while I have heard of dealers gouging classic collectors who need low pop/high grade coins for their registry sets, I do not play that game, so I have not been subject to it. The dealers from whom I buy my coins have told me repeatedly, and lived up to it, that if I ever want to rid myself of a coin they sold me, they want it back. From what I have seen and heard here of the modern coin dealers, that might not be the case. There was a whole thread not quite a month ago concerning a high profile modern dealer who would not even return calls or emails from a customer who wanted out of the coins. Perhaps that anecdote was an exception, rather than the rule. >>
You might want to go back and read this thread again. The point has never been conceeded
by the modern collectors and it was won in the thread you mention. In fact, if you go back and
read the other threads on the subject with an open mind you'd probably agree the point was
won in those threads too, even if not so dramatically.
this little bit of jousting we do is almost silly to me yet difficult to not get embroiled in sometimes, isn't it?? why the heck should we ever feel like we need to defend our choices?? one half of my brain knows to let things slide but the other gets miffed for all the right illogical reasons!!
for entertainment value only
1865 3CN---should holder at MS61-63. strong clash with nice color for a 3-cent.
1938 Jefferson---an NTC PR66 crackout with wonderful rainbow tone but some spotting that should limit the grade to PR65.
1962 Jefferson---intense tone, a gift last F.U.N. from GSAGuy. if it isn't bagged it should holder at PR67.
1971 Jefferson---clean and sharply struck, MS66FS.
1916 Mercury---a nice first year issue that i think was dipped. the reverse is awesomely struck. MS63FB.
1956 Franklin, Type 1---an undesignated ICG PR68 crackout that should hold the grade.
1887 Morgan---this is my neighbors coin. the obverse is heavily toned with rainbow fields, the reverse white. AU58.
1976-D Eisenhower, Type 1---a mint set coin that's clean with nice tone, it's for my set. MS65 with a shot at MS66.
1978 Eisenhower---a poptopsruss $7 ANA special!!! great tone and clean, also for my set. MS66.
the free quarterly submission is a 1938-D Jefferson. this will be my first submission of a 1938 Reverse MS coin so i'm not sure how they'll grade the steps. it's a solid MS66 that's about as well struck as i've found with clean but weak steps. i'm counting on the "good day after F.U.N. Show grade" of MS66FS.
al h.
Morgan Sets: 1 1/2
Washington Silver: Complete
Large Classic Cents: 1/3 complete
Saints: just started
Maybe Type coin guys get along OK?? Funny Post Keets.
Nice threads too......
Well said! (I did read the original post on Moderns BEFORE Keets rewrote it!)
GrandAm
You should know better, Al. I have an AH Kennedy that I purchased from Russ (no doubt for an obscene profit to him), and I enjoy looking at it whenever I get the chance. You would never catch me openly discussing it, would you?
what was i thinking.
al h.