Was professional grading a shock when you rejoined the hobby?

jrdolan

How strange was it when you rejoined the hobby and found this alphabet soup of professional grading? For me it was like Alice in Wonderland, or Dorothy discovering she wasn't in Kansas any more.

When I emerged from 14 years of hobby hibernation last winter, I quickly found that my cards weren't drawing much interest 'cause they weren't graded. So after some unpleasantness with PRO and CSA, and brief trials with SGC and GAI, I settled on PSA as my grader of choice and sent them a couple hundred examples of my best raw vintage.

I was shocked that most of my "NM-MT" was PSA 7 and my "NM" was only PSA 6. And that was my best stuff! My late-80's grading was woefully out of whack compared to today's standards. I was giving vintage much more leeway on condition than PSA does. I think I got only half a dozen PSA 8's out of those early bulk submissions, and just one 9 -- a Molitor / Trammell rookie, not really "vintage."

Anyway, I sold off my dupes and bigger disappointments, and didn't send any more raw material to PSA until I got myself in synch with today's standards. By then I had mostly EX-MT stuff left worth grading, at best, so I became much more selective and my submissions got smaller. I got to the point where my grading agreed with PSA about 80% of the time. Predictably, thanks to the registry and the absolutely gorgeous examples of vintage I was seeing on the market, I began to want better grades than I was getting back on my own raw stuff. So I bought them. And bought them. And bought them. Holy cow, what an obsession that became! I got addicted to high-grade vintage.

Now almost all my gradable vintage from the old days is gone, sold as PSA 5-8 singles or in raw lots. Kit Young bought about 1,500 EX or worse cards from the '50s and '60s, mostly commons. I have saved one 200-count box of low-grade stars as a connection to that eariier period in my collectng life, and perhaps to grade and sell if dark times befall. Most of my original graded cards have been upgraded from 7 to 8, or 8 to 9, in my registries, but some remain -- the few pleasant results from my initial plunge into this weird, wonderful world of graded cards.

helionaut

I've been in the hobby heavily since before slabbing got going, and I was a holdout against it. All the usual reaons: I know how to grade cards, I don't need to pay anyone to do it, I ain't paying extra $$ because someone I'll never meet says a card is mint, how do I know my cards won't be damaged/lost/stolen/switched when submitted. When it really took off around 1998, and there were sales on ebay of SGC 100 McGwire and PSA 10 Gwynn rookies in the thousands, I started gathering stuff to submit, still dubious of the process. When BGS started, I tried them out because I liked the subgrade idea. After that first submission turned about $180 worth of cards and submission fees into over $400 on ebay, I softened. A couple years later I started my first registry set. I guess the biggest adjustments for me were getting used to a tougher grading scale (like you I was grading about 1 grade too lightly) for the cards I'm going to submit and paying the prices I do for cards both slabbed and raw, but it was a gradual process.

Brian48

Same here. I only got back into this hobby about 5-6 months ago. I left the hobby about 8-9 years ago when my $35,000 collection was stolen (home got broken into) and I just lost heart. I still wince every time I see a nrmt Bobby Hull 58-59 rookie go up for auction and wonder if that was "mine".

Anyway, got interested again this past summer when the Red Sox got hot and Clemens in Houston made his resurgence. I was completely shocked at how integral professional grading had become. Made a few buyer mistakes initially also when I assumed that all grading services were essentially same. Note to one self: Stick with the "big four" and never even consider buying Gem Elite, Pro Graded, Graded Rookies Authenticated, etc..

Sandhawk

What shocked me was how much the value of cards dropped from the late 80s/early 90s !!

Brian48

Actually, I think it's even more shocking that a relatively recent card like a 1985 Donruss Roger Clemens, which books for about $40, can fitch up to $4000 just because it's slabbed in a pretty case and has someone else's opinion that it's a in "GEM MINT" condition. I was brought up to believe that mint meant the condition you'd expect if you were to pull the card fresh out of a pack.

1985 Donruss Rogers Clemens, BGS graded 10

jrdolan

Brian48, it still amazes me that Beckett uses its hilarious price guide and VERY effective PR machine to brainwash its faithful into believing that its BGS 9.5's and 10's are on vastly higher level than PSA 10, for example. In the short term this is an astoundingly successful market campaign on Beckett's part ... but ultimately it's sticking a knife into their own followers. Some of these entranced Beckett readers will someday be jumping out of windows when the market corrects for this artificial manipulation of prices and these "rare" BGS Gem Mints and Pristines are worth 15-20% of their initial purchase price.

Just a little theory of mine. You can tell I don't own or buy any BGS stuff -- unless to crack and submit to PSA with the full understanding that it may go down in grade or be rejected as trimmed.

Vargha

It was more of a pleasant surprise to me. It did take me several months to assess the alphabet soup of grading companies to come to an intelligent conclusion on the validity of each.

Buccaneer

<< <i>Actually, I think it's even more shocking that a relatively recent card like a 1985 Donruss Roger Clemens, which books for about $40, can fitch up to $4000 just because it's slabbed in a pretty case and has someone else's opinion that it's a in "GEM MINT" condition. I was brought up to believe that mint meant the condition you'd expect if you were to pull the card fresh out of a pack.

1985 Donruss Rogers Clemens, BGS graded 10 >>



I am in the exact same boat. The second hiatus from the hobby was from 1990 to 2003. Everything changed during that time, some for the better (eBay) and some for the worse (cards commodization and Registry competition). It took me several months of emailing a couple of trusted dealers (one in Indiana that was esp. helpful) to help me get caught up and to understand what's the market with graded cards. When I saw all of those multi-thousands $$$$ prices for 1970s and 1980s star cards, something wasn't clicking. The same was true for 1970s commons that were listed to up to $1000 (like the 73 Campaneris, I believe). I couldn't believe what I was seeing and it didn't make sense to me. But after learning from a couple of dealers and then coming here, I finally got the picture. It wasn't very pretty.

I had a ton of 70s and 80s cards but these were not the ones getting big bucks. In fact, much to my chagrin, nothing I had (even the cards that I had paid a lot of money for or at one were worth a lot of money) were worth too much. I'm talking about the stars (and favorite players) when I was a teen - Bench, Rose, Schmidt, Morgan, Carlton, etc - plus those stars of the 80s that I chased - Mattingly, Boggs, Puckett, Gwynn. It was a key question that I asked to find out WHY??? The answer was that during my hiatus, the stars of the 70s and 80s were caught in the middle in demand between the superstars of the 50s (Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Koufax, et al) and the stars of today (ARod, et al). My heart sunk when I compared the prices of the 1980s and early 1990s Becketts that I still have to current prices. That and paying full book for VGEX-EXMT cards when I worked at card shops and regional shows in the 1980s. So instead of chasing after gem mints cards in plastic slabs for the cards and sets that I loved, I had to switch to the older sets in which NM cards still have value, both monetary and aesthetically.

ctsoxfan

Nice topic. I have been back collecting for a few years since the inevitable mid-life hiatus, but when I first got back, grading really taught me a lesson. And, that lesson was - what you thought was "Mint" probably isn't. I was quite proud of my run of 70's raw sets, but when I graded some of the dupes, and found many 8's instead of 9's and 10's - I was dissappointed. But, I began to see what made the 10 a 10 (most of the time!), and have progressed along selling the lower grade cards, and buying mint or near mint examples. Much in the same vein as jrdolan described.

As for that BGS Clemens "Pristine" - that guy will be sorry he parted with the 4 grand someday. Soon, probably.

WinPitcher

I could think of many better ways to spend the money for what that Clemens sold for. But if that buyer is happy who am I to disagree?

softparade

I just back to the hobby 3 months ago when I stumbled across the PSA web site. At first i was all over the place in what I was buying and finally settled in on a 1978 Topps graded set. I might be broke by now if I did not realize early on that I had better focus my money into building something I love. 1978 Topps was what I remember most from my childhood and I ruined all of those flipping and in my bike spokes. So here I am.

I got either very lucky with my first free submission or maybe I am a quality geek. I had 5 PSA 9's NQ and one PSA 7 in that submission. I just sent in a 42 card submission so I will soon find out if I was just lucky or if I do have a knack for the quality PSA looks for.

Stone193

Been collecting continuously before Grading and for all of its faults, my general feeling is very positive. I buy with more confidence and don't have as much fearful anticipation of the arrival of my stuff. When purchasing privately, I do like to reserve the privilege of returns. On ebay, if the scans are good and I can judge the card pretty well, I'm usually happy with what I get. And as most know, you will get better prices all and all from ebay than a show.
I remember meeting Mike Baker in the very early 90's and he was very frank about grading and it's growth. Well, it has done way better than anyone ever anticipated. Some thought it was a fad like pogs, e.g.

My final observation...there are a lot of people who have spent a lot of money on graded cards...I think that's why there may be, at times, a lot of emotion in the responses to subjects involving the negative aspects of the grading industry. Who can blame anyone for feeling like that with a lot at stake?

Hope everyone is having a great Christmas today! I've got a cold Bud and life is gooooood!



your friend
Mike

rjd

As one who has been in and out of the hobby for a very long time (divorces, kids, more kids, divorces), grading and ebay have been huge improvements, EXCEPT, 1/2 the raw cards from ebay are way off. Only exceeded by the raw cards I bought from many dealers, prior to ebay running them out. Surface condition is one of the underegarded issues by scans and descriptions, but not by PSA. Most every card I bought at a local dealer (prior to ebay) has been graded way less than I was told (but I beleived them, so it's also on me), like the NM 57 ted Williams that I just got back as a 5, hoping for a 6. On the otherhand, the 64 Koufax Stand-Up I just got of ebay for $60 was a gamble that paid, PSA 8. For me as only a collector, it's better than the older days, as always buyer beware. Slabbed cards at auction are the lowest risk, we have to accept the other risks. I am a fanatic about describing all aspects of raw cards I sell on ebay (100% positive) and would always refund unhappy people (has yet to happen). This is supposed to be fun and enjoyable, but the $$ have gotten big. Just my rambling thoughts, we are moving forward as a hobby (at least vintage), other than the new stuff with created scarcity resulting in huges #'s of cards dumped chasing those 1/1's.

Bob

jaxxr

The professional evaluation and encapsulation of sportscards was not a really great shock, because of its earlier start in a hobby I have very minor, though constant interest in; coins.

Very similar fears, complaints, short-sightedness, and so on, as was with cards, when coins were starting to become slabbed by " Experts".

I think now we all feel a quite expensive piece of cardboard or silver should be rated by an independent outside source. Who could argue that a nice-looking, reasonably safe holder is proper for the display and the keeping of such valuable items.

I also started with CSA and SGC as I thought the half point scale was better and of course the price was a bit lower. It would take much too much time and probably be very boring to tell of my transformation to become a 99% PSA proponent.

The biggest real debate over grading now is usually, whether to grade commons which are of a less than typical popular shape for their year ( who really wants a PSA 4 1956 Ruben Gomez ? ), as well as whether to grade newer cards except for scarce / short-printed items and the very top superstars ( who really wants to pay for a PSA 9 2000 UD Rickey Henderson regular set issue ? )

Over the years, price guides, national conventions, the internet, along with card grading have changed the hobby forever. Probably for the better in the long run, I feel.

pc

for me it was the only way i'ld return to the hobby.
i swore off coins after selling mine @ the height of
the hunt silver crisis when fortunately for me i sold
sliders and medals for their weight.

WinPitcher

NO

WhosYourVladdy

Hi,

This is my first post, I have been reading the boards for the last couple of months as I have been getting back into collecting, and have decided to jump in and leave a message. I find this thread really intriguing.

I was out of collecting from 91 until this last summer. My rekindled passion for collecting coincided with my renewed interest in Baseball. I bought season tickets for the Angels this year. I swore off the game in 1994. As a long suffering Angels fan (started going to games in 1975 at the age of 6, have seen a lot of bad baseball) I gave the game up after the strike. Unfortunately for me the Angels had to go and get some heart and a great new owner, and sucked me back in 2002.

I was fortunate to enough to be invited to a business mixer in April before the beginning of the season with the Angels, and got a chance to meet Vlad Guerrero and get his autograph. I decided in the summer to take a look at what my collection was worth, and I went to a baseball card show. I was shocked to find out that I had no clue as to what happened to the hobby. I started to look at these graded cards and was confounded as to what it was all about and how it all worked. I was equally saddened to see that all of the cards that I thought would be worth something one day, were not in the greatest of condition. I always hoped that my cards were nice, mint etc., but after looking at graded versions, and then reexamining, I realized that most of my stuff was not worth the cardboard it was printed on.

Like many of you I love the fact that part of the fun is recapturing the days when life was simple and you got pictures of baseball players with your gum. I bought a very nice 1976 Topps (the first year that I bought packs) set from a dealer this year. After that I decided to put together a graded set and started a 1977 set in all PSA 8. I have caught the bug and am now buying 9's. I am currently #10 on the 77 Topps set and rising.

I have been having a great time and enjoying reading your commentary. I have learned a lot from all of you in my short time back in the hobby. I am looking forward to communicating more with people who share my passion. Thanks and I look forward to posting in the future.

David
Whos_Your_Vladdy

fsjeter

I too left the Hobby in 1991 only to return in 1998 just as numbered cards were beginning to find their way into the hobby. Since I kept tabs on the hobby during my hiatus, I was more skeptical than shocked by grading. I was more shocked by the increase in the number of yearly issues by the card companies and how difficult it was to pull any key or desireable cards from packs. I quickly returned to vintage cards and a scant few modern sets. I do have to say that the rising prices being paid for high grade vintage material has been a little shocking. It seems strange thinking back but card grading got me interested in collecting signed and/or Game Used memorabilia. It seemed like a natural progression for my collecting interests after the auction catalogs started rolling in.

Scott

jrdolan

Amazing how many people dropped out of the hobby around 1990-92. That seems to have been a watershed period for many collectors and dealers created by the late-'80s boom, as well as longer-term collectors who just lost interest as the boom drowned in a sea of overproduction. When I sold off most of my modern material, Barry Bonds hadn't been sorted from my '86 and '87 commons. Appropriately, as it turned out, Barry was being sold as "bulk."

Stone193

<< <i>Appropriately, as it turned out, Barry was being sold as "bulk." >>


JR

jrdolan

Exactly, Mike. Except my Barry "commons" were '87 Donruss. I clearly remember ripping Donruss boxes looking for Bo Jackson, Canseco, Will Clark and Mike Greenwell. I remember thinking it was cool that Bobby Bonds' son was a player -- but nuthin' anybody would want. Into the commons pile, Barry, along with Greg Maddux and Palmeiro. You guys are bums. Hey, another Greenwell!

Buccaneer

<< <i>Amazing how many people dropped out of the hobby around 1990-92. That seems to have been a watershed period for many collectors and dealers created by the late-'80s boom, as well as longer-term collectors who just lost interest as the boom drowned in a sea of overproduction. When I sold off most of my modern material, Barry Bonds hadn't been sorted from my '86 and '87 commons. Appropriately, as it turned out, Barry was being sold as "bulk."
>>



You are correct about the watershed event, imo.

Since I started collecting in 1970, I believe the period from 1987-1989 was the most tragic of all of my experiences. During my spare time, I worked at a card shop in KY during those years. Of all of the years, why did it have to be those??? Incidently, I also worked at a card shop in CA in the early 80s, which were better years, but I was just starting the learn the business side of the hobby and didn't know what to look for. I knew better what to look for in the late 80s but I still bought all of the wrong crap. I remember at the shop we were selling 87T Greenwell for $4.50. I unfortunately got caught up in the secondary Topps/Donruss/Fleer issues during that time (e.g., Bowmans, Topps Bigs, etc.) and then the deluge starting hitting about 1990 and that was time to get out.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>Hey, another Greenwell! >>



I recently found some cards I sorted in 1987, and of course, the Mike Greenwells, Kal Daniels, and Barry Larkins all had their own little cases (along with Jose Canseco of course). However, in the commons pile were the Barry Bonds and Greg Maddux cards - you know, maybe this Greenwell guy will make a comeback someday?

stormsurge

I am back in the hobby again after leaving it in 1990. One thing that I love about it now is the availability of commons. I was trying to complete a 1959 Topps Baseball set then and finally gave up because it was so difficult to find them.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>I am back in the hobby again after leaving it in 1990. One thing that I love about it now is the availability of commons. I was trying to complete a 1959 Topps Baseball set then and finally gave up because it was so difficult to find them. >>



Good point. Obviously, you can attribute that to Ebay and the internet. There is no way most of us could complete our vintage sets without it.

schr1st

I first got into the hobby back in 1988, started working at a card store in 89, and stuck it out for the next 5 years until I was more interested in spending more money on bad dates in college than I was on bad prospects in cards. After I graduated, I was among the underemployed poor, so collecting boxes of pasta was more important to me. Finally when things started coming together for me financially, I started baby-stepping back into the hobby in 2000, and really started getting into it in 2001. When it came to card grading, at first I thought to myself "Why would I want to encapsulate a card?" Then I realized that it wasn't like I was taking my 1957 Topps Ted Williams card out of it's lucite case to go on walks with me, and I realized that it was probably better for the cards to be protected in a slab than it was in a 4 screw holder.

I fortunatly had a friend (and former customer back when I worked at the store) in the hobby whom I ended up crossing paths with back in 2001 who warned me to stay away from PRO, USA, and the other 3rd tier grading companies. I learned the horrors of BGS grading when I started posting on their message boards, and while I still have issues with many things about PSA (management, the holders, etc.), I still think that they are the best in what is generally a pretty pathetic landscape of card grading companies.