When is a Deal a Deal?

ajia

I little background.....there is a member that has some Morgans for sale....I shot out a PM asking if he would be interested in a trade for a couple of his Morgans.
He nixed trading for one of them but was interested in trading 2 of mine for 1 of his. I will not disclose the date now because it might give him away. The values were close and he asked for some picts. I shot the picts to him. He tells me that he likes what he see's but he can't send me pict's as the coin I want is coming back from PCGS.

Now that the coin has come back he states, "Give me a couple days to think on what I want to do. I have never done a trade before, only a purchase.". That was this morning.
Now he writes, "......... besides the 1890-S and 1903-O what else do you have?"!

What gives? What happened to giving your word on a deal & sticking to it? Most had traded or sold a coin that we wish we hadn't.....hell, I've won a auction on eBay from a member who put the wrong grade in the title MS64 instead of MS65 & still sent me the coin. The difference in value wasn't that great, but he put his rep. above the dollars that he lost out on.

I guess I am just venting here a bit, & I'm sure this won't help getting back to the original deal, but when is a deal a deal?!

Bear

I guess a deal is a deal when it is concluded and paid for.

ER

<< <i>I little background.....there is a member that has some Morgans for sale....I shot out a PM asking if he would be interested in a trade for a couple of his Morgans.
He nixed trading for one of them but was interested in trading 2 of mine for 1 of his. I will not disclose the date now because it might give him away. The values were close and he asked for some picts. I shot the picts to him. He tells me that he likes what he see's but he can't send me pict's as the coin I want is coming back from PCGS.

Now that the coin has come back he states, "Give me a couple days to think on what I want to do. I have never done a trade before, only a purchase.". That was this morning.
Now he writes, "......... besides the 1890-S and 1903-O what else do you have?"!

What gives? What happened to giving your word on a deal & sticking to it? Most had traded or sold a coin that we wish we hadn't.....hell, I've won a auction on eBay from a member who put the wrong grade in the title MS64 instead of MS65 & still sent me the coin. The difference in value wasn't that great, but he put his rep. above the dollars that he lost out on.

I guess I am just venting here a bit, & I'm sure this won't help getting back to the original deal, but when is a deal a deal?! >>


Let 's see what he has to say. But, from what you write above, I don 't see a deal done.
Edit to say:JMHO.

ajia

So, on a trade a deal is not a deal until coins (from both parties) are shipped?
I understand one party not liking the coin(s) sent, so the coins are returned & the deal voided, that's happened a few times to deals I have been in.
But never have a been in a deal where the trade material was identified & OK'd, then at the last minute more was expected.

Like I said, I am just venting at this point & I'll figure that it is the other parties option to ask for a better deal, even if I don't like it.

lava

Based on what you've written, I don't think a judge or jury could conclude there was a deal or not. You haven't given enough information. For example, it is not apparent whether you were willing to accept his coin sight unseen. If not, because you have not seen it, you can hardly argue you have a deal. It sounds to me like one of you, and maybe both of you, had not commited to anything, and that he in particular was looking for a deal that felt right. You sent him pix, and his response was "I like them," but why should a judge or jury read into that "I like that and we have a deal" anymore than a judge or jury should find that the guy was thinking "I like the coins, but they aren't quite what I'm looking for in those dates.

Remember, deals via internet are susceptible to people not being on the same page all the time. This is a great example. Were you asking the right questions like "please write back and confirm we have a deal on the terms outlined?"

just my thoughts

Sequitur

He tells me that he likes what he see's . . . . Now that the coin has come back he states, "Give me a couple days to think on what I want to do."

Based on your description, I don't think a deal was consummated. If all s/he said was, "I like what I see," or even something similar to that, that doesn't say to me, "done deal." Admiring a potential acquisition is one thing; agreeing to acquire it is another.

relayer

<< <i>Give me a couple days to think on what I want to do >>



Doesn't sound like a done deal to me

Newmismatist

It sounds like the negotiations for a POTENTIAL deal - so with that kind of deal, no deal

clackamas

Maybe is got the coin back and thinks he got hosed by PCGS or that the coin is very PQ and worth more? Does no sound unreasonable.

Bochiman

I agree with the majority so far.
Sounds like a potential deal and not a done deal. Sounds like maybe he wants to re-eval the coin now that it is back (could have been at PCGS for months and he forgot how nice it is or wants it).

If you would have returned the coin if he asked and didn't want yours, then why fret over this?

You must have been getting a sweet deal of a coin to be bothered by it this much?

magikbilly

That is way too nebulous to call a deal - it was correctly described as "the potential" for a deal. As noted, always state "please write back and confirm we have a deal on the terms outlined?" - this is very useful. Between friends is one thing - but when tryign to negotiate with a stranger it is best to be CLEAR.

Best,
Billy

DeepCoin

I concur with the rest of the people who have commented. I would also add that IMHO the coin came back from PCGS a different grade than the other party believed it would. It may be frustrating, but that is part of the deal when you are trading with someone who does not have the coin in hand when negotiating.

I would suggest waiting until all coins are in the possesion of the other party before trying to make a deal. Particularly when a coin is out for grade at PCGS. Good luck! Let us know if you ever make the deal. It would be interesting to know what happens.

greghansen

Just put him/her on your DNT (do not trade) list and be done with it. It wasn't a done deal. But you now learned some very important information about this person...and it didn't COST YOU A CENT TO LEARN IT. You've come out ahead. You've identified someone you won't deal with again...and it didn't cost you money to learn it. Don't dwell on it. Take the positive spin and move on.

RYK

I personally do not find that your trading partner did anything wrong. He/she was uncomfortable with the deal from the beginning. No coins were shipped or examined. Some collectors, myself included, might be awkward regarding "the art of the deal." It is not our avocation, and sometimes we fumble.

We all know that a deal between dealers is not consummated until both parties exclaim in unison, "Done Deal!"

BAJJERFAN

I'm guessing the coin came back from PCGS graded higher than he expected so now he wants more for it. Sounds like he agreed to trade this for those two but no contingincies were made in the event the coin he had graded out differently. Oh well!! He Sighs!! Be glad no money was involved. BTW what were you trading for?

MadMarty

When both parties say those two magic words....

DONE DEAL!

UncleJoe

There is nothing to be upset about as there was no deal.

In addition, what if you both agreed to the trade but when the other party received your coins, your pics in his opinion made the coins look better than he thinks they are. Would he be able to return them to you and undo the "deal"?

Joe.

BAJJERFAN

Generally these done deals are contingent upon a coin or whatever passing a final in hand inspection but by and large it seems that there was enough of an agreement that coins should have been sent to each other. Granted this is only one side of the story and we don't know exactly what was agreed to.

maddogale

Here is another viewpoint that no one else here has brought up. When the other person asked, "What else do you have?" This could have been a request for different dates, not necessarily additional coins to be included on the trade. Just how I see it by how you told it, Ajia. I do agree with the others that nothing was really concluded and 'set in stone' on the matter as I see it. The valid point of a coin doing a 'surprise' from PCGS and being in a higher holder than expected is a possible. I think you should have also gotten pics of the coin he had before assuming anything done on the deal.

tlhoy

The guy changed his mind, period! End of story.
In fact, I believe you should apologize to that other member.
You should have never started this thread. There was NO deal here.

Glenn

braddick

According to Ricard Simmons Deal a Meal concept, you can trade two sugars for one fat.

I don't know what he'd say about your two Morgans for the other trader's one.

maddogale

According to Ricard Simmons Deal a Meal

First of all, Pat, it's RICHARD...and coming from you I would expect you to be a Simmons-watcher........

ajia

OK, I'm awake now.
Since some of you requesed more info, here are the series of PM that went back & forth to the point where I thought a deal was made.....
Wondering if you would be interested in this trade:
Your: (2 Morgans)
For My, All PCGS Graded: (8 Morgans)
hi, Thanks for your reply. I do not collect grades less than MS63 in morgans. But I would consider your
1903-O and your 1889-O for my (Morgan) . Please send pictures and registration numbers. Thanks.
(Picture sent)
They look fine to me! I will let you know when the (Morgan) arrives. Have a great week!
hi Augie, RE: (Morgan) Just a note to let you know that my package has not arrived. I hope to get it monday or tuesday, and will contact you. I havent forgotten.
Thanks, Augie

To answer another question, yes I would have taken the coin sight unseen. The description, & apparently the reason the other party has changed his mind, is that the coin is an Unc & that PCGS doesn't know what it's doing designating this coin an AU.

Legally, I probably don't have a leg to stand on, but morally (does that count anymore?) doesn't "They look fine to me! I will let you know when the (Morgan) arrives. Have a great week!" sound like a deal has been reached....I thought so.

IrishMike

Regardless of who you are dealing with, never assume anything. The words "consider" and "look fine" do not a deal make either legally or morally. Folks each have their unique definition of morally and what ethical means. For what it's worth I wouldn't have posted this thread either. If I was doing a trade with someone and it reached its final stage and the trading partner said something along the lines: "I've had second thoughts about this deal, I don't want to part with this coin", it wouldn't bother me in the least. Why, it means the other person is too attached to that coin for whatever reason and so be it.

braddick

<< <i>According to Ricard Simmons Deal a Meal First of all, Pat, it's RICHARD...and coming from you I would expect you to be a Simmons-watcher........ >>



Only his train wreck interviews on Howard Stern!

UncleJoe

Repeat: "No deal was made".

Depends on how one reads "I will let you know". Does it just mean he'll let you know when the Morgan arrives at his house (would make more sense if he wrote he would let you know when he was mailing it to you if there was a deal) or more likely he'll let you know whether he will do the deal once he has the Morgan in his hand.

Joe.

maddogale

Only his train wreck interviews on Howard Stern!

Geez-Louise, Pat, you watch Stern too????!!!!!!!!!

No wonder you collect PO1 coins........

BTW, I have a nice silver Ike I am wearing down to your grade level, just to see how it wears.

braddick

<< <i>Only his train wreck interviews on Howard Stern! Geez-Louise, Pat, you watch Stern too????!!!!!!!!! No wonder you collect PO1 coins........ BTW, I have a nice silver Ike I am wearing down to your grade level, just to see how it wears. >>

Silver Ikes don't wear easily.

Where have you placed it?

fivecents

ajja...My question to you is, would you have gone through with the deal if he had sent you a butt ugly horriable looking Morgan as trade?
I would think a deal is not a deal until both parties have the coins in hand and approve that the coins are exceptable. jmo

DMWJR

No one has done anything wrong yet. 1. You still have not reached a difinitive agreement. Sounds like you need to get your agreement nailed down a little better. You sound like you are going off a little half co-cked, but I understand when a coin you really want is involved. 2. No need to post a thread about this and risk a private "non-problem" turning into a public problem. Communitcate directly with this other person and see if you can clear up the details.

Coinhusker1

The deal was never finalized, and the "proposed deal" was cancelled based on new information. Why try to stick it to him when it was not finalized, and he is obviously not comfortable with it, and hence would have a high likelihood of returning the coins?

He could have gone through the motions, and then said he did not like the coins, and then wanted to unwind the deal. The way I see it, you saved postage going both ways.

MORGANHUNTER2

at this moment- we should all take a deep breath --breathe in.....breathe out.....get rid of all this hostility and go with the flow of life...

Either wait for the other party to say it's a deal and conclude your business- quit crying like a little girly man....

lava

<< <i>Since some of you requesed more info, .....

But I would consider your 1903-O and your 1889-O for my (Morgan) ....

They look fine to me! I will let you know when the (Morgan) arrives....

To answer another question, yes I would have taken the coin sight unseen....

Legally, I probably don't have a leg to stand on, but morally (does that count anymore?) doesn't "They look fine to me! I will let you know when the (Morgan) arrives. Have a great week!" sound like a deal has been reached....I thought so. >>



Ajia, based on the new information, my opinion has not changed -- still no deal.

First, he says he would "consider" a trade, not he would "accept" a trade.

Second, his "they look fine to me," is not the equivalent of "Ill accept them in trade."

Third, you indicate you WOULD accept the coin sight unseen, but did you communicate that to the guy?

Legally, I don't think there was enough clear communication to conclude you were definitely in agreement on all the fine points of the proposed deal.

Morally, I think his obligation is to negotiate in good faith. I can't tell if he's done that or not, based on the information.

In the future, simply attempt to confirm the specifics of the deal by laying out the terms and seeking a definitive confirmation.

K6AZ

Augie, I wouldn't fuss over it. Some people are just not comfortable trading online, and it sounds like this member got cold feet.

I tend to agree with some of the others, in this situation I wouldn't have posted this here. It sounds like it could have still been worked out, but now that you posted this here it's probably killed any chance of a deal being worked out.

RKKay

<< <i>We all know that a deal between dealers is not consummated until both parties exclaim in unison, "Done Deal!" >>

mgoodm3

wrong post. a deal is a deal when the deal is done.

DMWJR

<< <i>wrong post. a deal is a deal when the deal is done. >>



Possibly meant for another thread?

mgoodm3

Yeah I posted something for the box of twenty thread here and made a quick reply to make it look like I really had something to say.

DMWJR

mgoogm3

I thought I caught you but the quote picked up the edited version!!

RYK

Guess the artist:

Since it costs a lot to win, and even more to lose,
You and me bound to spend some time wond'rin' what to choose.
Goes to show, you don't ever know,
Watch each card you play and play it slow,
Wait until that deal come round,
Don't you let that deal go down, no, no.

Newmismatist

<< <i>OK, I'm awake now.
Since some of you requesed more info, here are the series of PM that went back & forth to the point where I thought a deal was made.....
Wondering if you would be interested in this trade:
Your: (2 Morgans)
For My, All PCGS Graded: (8 Morgans)
hi, Thanks for your reply. I do not collect grades less than MS63 in morgans. But I would consider your
1903-O and your 1889-O for my (Morgan) . Please send pictures and registration numbers. Thanks. >>



No "deal" here - the other party says he'll "Consider", which is defined as follows: "to think about carefully: as a : to think of especially with regard to taking some action <is considering you for the job> <considered moving to the city>" and this: "CONSIDER, STUDY, CONTEMPLATE, WEIGH mean to think about in order to arrive at a judgment or decision. CONSIDER may suggest giving thought to in order to reach a suitable conclusion, opinion, or decision <refused even to consider my proposal>. STUDY implies sustained purposeful concentration and attention to details and minutiae <study the plan closely>. CONTEMPLATE stresses focusing one's thoughts on something but does not imply coming to a conclusion or decision <contemplate the consequences of refusing>. WEIGH implies attempting to reach the truth or arrive at a decision by balancing conflicting claims or evidence <weigh the pros and cons of the case>. "

At this point the other person is thinking about it, nothing more.




<< <i> (Picture sent)
They look fine to me! I will let you know when the (Morgan) arrives. Have a great week!
hi Augie, RE: (Morgan) Just a note to let you know that my package has not arrived. I hope to get it monday or tuesday, and will contact you. I havent forgotten.
Thanks, Augie >>



Well here's where it gets murky - He looks at a picture and says they look fine - this is at best ambiguous - It could be constured as 1) "They are acceptable to me and it's a done deal" which is clearly YOUR interpretation of his comment, or "The PICTURES look OK to me" and "I'll LET YOU KNOW IF we have a deal when I get my coin back from PCGS" - which is clearly his interpretation of this very ambiguous statement. One thing that you should take from this - in a dialogue, whether verbal or written, each party to the dialogues has a different preception of the consquenses of what is said by them and what they understand the response to mean. IF you truly felt that you had a "done deal" you should have followed up with something like: "Thanks for your reply - it's my understanding that when you get the coin, you'll send it to me in excahnge for X & Y, is that correct?" Now you are clearly stating to him "I believe we have consummated a deal and I want you to confirm that we have a deal" - You didn't do that and you cannot claim either legally or morally thta you have made a contract to trade your coins for his coin and it is enforceable. It's more your error than his because you have ASSUMED that what he meant is what you wanted it to mean.

The person who wants to "do the deal" has at minimum an obligation to make sure that there is clarity in what is being agreed to. In law that is called "Offer" and "Acceptance" and that it can't be based on statements, whether verbal or written that are ambiguous and not set out with clarity - There is another fact which goes completely unmentioned in your exchange of emails: What if either of you receive the coins and you don't like the coins - pictures are one thing, but the coin in hand may look very different than the picture. Recently someone posted a nice looking proof Morgan with the Q: what's the grade? - The "guesses" where as high as Pr67Cam, the actual grade was significantly lower - the pictures did NOT show the hairlines on the coin that resulted in a much lower grade. So in the end, all of this may well have been only preliminary negotiations that could be reasonably construed as whatever is agreed to, the "Deal" is not "done" until after I see the coin(s) in hand and accept that I am willing to trade my coin for your coin(s).

Further, this cuts both ways - he no more has an enforceable deal than you do. Suppose someone had come along and offered you "stupid" money for your coins - you look at your correspondance and say - "Hmmm, he's thinking about this, (a "bird in the bush") and I've got someone right here, right now who will pull the trigger and pay me more than I think these coins are worth, and I can take that money, buy the same thing he has and have "change" left over" - so you do that deal (the "bird in hand") and later he says to you "OK I got my coin back, now send me your coins so we can do our deal". The answer is the same: there was no deal! There were discussions, negotiations, but nothing consumated - for neither of you.

The bottom line is you may have wanted what he has, but he never agreed that he would trade what he has for what you have.



<< <i>To answer another question, yes I would have taken the coin sight unseen. The description, & apparently the reason the other party has changed his mind, is that the coin is an Unc & that PCGS doesn't know what it's doing designating this coin an AU.

Legally, I probably don't have a leg to stand on, but morally (does that count anymore?) doesn't "They look fine to me! I will let you know when the (Morgan) arrives. Have a great week!" sound like a deal has been reached....I thought so. >>



Unfortunately, your interpreation of what YOU THOUGHT he meant, does not make it so. You needed to "close" the deal with follow-up correspondance to make sure that you were both "on the same page" and "agreeing" to exactly the same thing.

Your implication that the other person has "breached" an agreement is not quite accurate, and the fault, IF there is any, is with not clarifying your dialogue.

LALASD4

I do not see a done deal either, he might want to expand the trade maybe? Instead of a two for one, he might be asking for a three fo five deal or something else.

ziggy29

IMO, a trade deal's a done deal when both parties have exchanged their offerings, both have received what the other has sent and both have indicated satisfaction with what they received.

To me, that's when it's *completely* done, though I suppose you could argue that if they agree to a no-returns clause or put the deal in writing, that the deal might be "done" before that time. But to me, it's never completely done until the items are exchanged and both are satisfied with what they received in trade.

Coinhusker1

<< <i>Guess the artist:

Since it costs a lot to win, and even more to lose,
You and me bound to spend some time wond'rin' what to choose.
Goes to show, you don't ever know,
Watch each card you play and play it slow,
Wait until that deal come round,
Don't you let that deal go down, no, no. >>



Grateful Dead!!

ajia

As far as making a private matter public, unfortunately that is the only way I could think of to get others opinion.....when one is upset it is hard to see past what one thinks.
The overwhelming opinion is that there was no deal made here, & I'm OK with that.
I need to be more direct in the communication between people I'm trading with....lesson learned.

In regards to what was being traded, all the coins involved were PCGS graded & the coin I wanted (yes it was one I really wanted as I do not have one in my registry set) was actually graded lower than expected, but the grade was known. Using the PCGS Price guide (OK, no comments on what you think of this guide) the trade was fairly even, mine was actually a bit more.

I have been trying to finish this since this (late) morning, so I hope this info isn't lost by the time span it has taken to write.

Gemineye

<< <i>When both parties say those two magic words....

DONE DEAL! >>


Ah..yes !!...two magical words.....!!!!

Boom

<< When both parties say those two magic words....

DONE DEAL! >>


Ah..yes !!...two magical words.....!!!!

BAJJERFAN

<< <i><< When both parties say those two magic words....

DONE DEAL! >>


Ah..yes !!...two magical words.....!!!!

>>



Unless one of em was Festus Hagen in which case it would be done deal and did deal.

SeaEagleCoins

<< <i>Guess the artist:

Since it costs a lot to win, and even more to lose,
You and me bound to spend some time wond'rin' what to choose.
Goes to show, you don't ever know,
Watch each card you play and play it slow,
Wait until that deal come round,
Don't you let that deal go down, no, no. >>





I know...I know....


Peter, Paul and Mary....






The OP wasn't ROBbed...while he was a HUNTER of the morgan...the DEAL did not go down...just keep on truckin'... and be GRATEFUL you're not DEAD...

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>Guess the artist:

Since it costs a lot to win, and even more to lose,
You and me bound to spend some time wond'rin' what to choose.
Goes to show, you don't ever know,
Watch each card you play and play it slow,
Wait until that deal come round,
Don't you let that deal go down, no, no. >>





I know...I know....


Peter, Paul and Mary....






The OP wasn't ROBbed...while he was a HUNTER of the morgan...the DEAL did not go down...just keep on truckin'... and be GRATEFUL you're not DEAD... >>




Twas from a solo album "The Wheel" by Jerry Garcia no?

ajia

Now we're playing musical replies with my (then) serious thread.....oh the indignity!