I just examined my five 1892 Columbians in NGC PL holders. My MS65 has some flatness on the rigging JUST AS IT FALLS OVER THE SIDE OF THE SHIP so no way it is proof, only prooflike. Two of my MS64s have some flatness similar to the MS64, so again only prooflike. What interests me is two of my MS64s have far more definition on this rigging area and now I am thinking "Could they be proofs?".
The pictures in SILVER AND GOLD COMMEMORATIVE COINS by Anthony Swiatek I found difficult to use to distinguish between proof and prooflike.
Waiting for Jade to come back to us.
I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
I just received the CDN Monthly (6/9/06) and the front page article is about Proof vs. P/L Columbian Halves. The article was written by Anthony Swiatek. Interestingly enough, the article doesn't give solid information about the proof diagnostics, but rather the same information regarding the strong strike. The article does, however, provide some fantastic historical information regarding the 1892/3 Columbian commemorative half proof issues. It is a good read.
Mr. Swiatek was kind enough to examine the coin that I posted here and he did state that he thought it would qualify as a proof. We have not done much with the coin in the past year, other than putting it in our case at an occassional show. The next step is to take some better images and post them here.
Sorry for the short update, but I thought that it was worthy information. Any quesitons/comments?
Dennis is no longer active with the JadeRareCoin forum ID. his new ID is numisma and it looks like he hasn't been active here for awhile, his eBay username is also inactive. does anyone know of his where-abouts, that's probably more important than the coin in question??
Sir:
In reply to your letter of the 2nd instant, you are informed that a proof coin is one in which the planchet is highly polished before being placed under the dies, and that it would be impossible for the Mint to undertake to make proof coins of all the Columbian souvenir half-dollars. Therefore, they will simply be like the ordinary silver coins when first turned out from the Mint.
Respectfully yours,
R.E. Preston
Acting Director
NARA-CP, RG 104, entry 235, vol. 65, p. 283.
Proof Columbian Half Dollars:
“My new Columbian Half. Kinda wondering what you might think. (Physics-fan3.14.comment)
No real Columbian half proofs were made.’ However, a bunch were struck from polished dies at the request of the sponsor. Same for the quarter. In both instances the Engraver specifically stated they are not proofs. RWB comment on 01/03/05, Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) Coin Forum.
It is my understanding that none of the major TPG’s (Third Party Grading Companies) will call any Columbian half or Isabella quarter a proof anymore. CaptHenway comment on 01/03/05, Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) Coin Forum.”10
@Julian said:
The TPG's are in a difficult situation.
On the one hand, they can have an opinion, BUT if they are wrong, then the service has to ante up the value of the coin.
I have some coins like that, which I am virtually certain are proofs, but there is nothing else to compare them to, and/or their is no documentation for their existance.
I am willing to purchase raw coins and pay for them, but only the most advanced and sophisticated collectors or dealers will consider purchasing them, without TPG blessing.
It is an unfortunate situation, at a minimum.
I attended an authentication seminar in CO during the 1970's taught by Charles Hoskins, and Skip Fazzari (ANACS authenticators) with a visit by Ken Bressett. I learned that in the beginning, ANACS used a lot of outside consultants. Apparently at first, the service had made two or three bad calls but every dealer was so happy to have an authentication service that no retribution was demanded. Then Hoskins was alerted that he had certified a very rare Irish gold coin based on the opinion of a consultant just after the service was opened. I believe they said ANACS had to honor a $ claim from a foreign collector for that error but up until then (Summer of1972, 3,or 74 - I don't remember when I took the class and don't have the certificate), they said ANACS never had to make a payout if it was determined they made a mistake. After that payout, they resolved to check the opinions of any consultant.
In another seminar a few years ago, I learned that NGC got stung very badly for $$$$$$ for taking the opinion of an outside consultant regarding the authenticity of counter stamped gold coins that are called "regulated" gold.
I don't know when ANACS or any of the newer authentication services NGC and PCGS began to guarantee their authentication or grading opinions and offer compensation for errors. That probably leads to a rising number of "No Decisions" on authentication that helps no one. I think the services should have had a disclaimer for any mistakes on grading or authentication right from the start. I'll guarantee they would have still gotten the business. After all, they provide an informed and needed service to the industry. Is it legal to start doing that with older coins grandfathered out?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
The pictures in SILVER AND GOLD COMMEMORATIVE COINS by Anthony Swiatek I found difficult to use to distinguish between proof and prooflike.
Waiting for Jade to come back to us.
UPDATE!
I just received the CDN Monthly (6/9/06) and the front page article is about Proof vs. P/L Columbian Halves. The article was written by Anthony Swiatek. Interestingly enough, the article doesn't give solid information about the proof diagnostics, but rather the same information regarding the strong strike. The article does, however, provide some fantastic historical information regarding the 1892/3 Columbian commemorative half proof issues. It is a good read.
Mr. Swiatek was kind enough to examine the coin that I posted here and he did state that he thought it would qualify as a proof. We have not done much with the coin in the past year, other than putting it in our case at an occassional show. The next step is to take some better images and post them here.
Sorry for the short update, but I thought that it was worthy information. Any quesitons/comments?
Our eBay auctions - TRUE auctions: start at $0.01, no reserve, 30 day unconditional return privilege & free shipping!
I seen the article and my first thought was of,you and your coin.
All I can say is,Good Luck.
Brian
<< <i>It's a proof. Okay, now you have a definitive answer.
Russ, NCNE >>
stop slinging propaganda
not sure, but it looks proof to me
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
What ever happened with this coin? I forgot about it.
Best,
Eric
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I am always on the look-out for these unicorn "proof" Columbian half dollars.
This one is the closest I've located lately:
I don't think it'll end up being a proof, and if it is, certainly is impaired.
peacockcoins
December 5, 1892
A.F. Seeberger, Esq.,
Treasurer World’s Columbian Exposition
Chicago, Illinois
Sir:
In reply to your letter of the 2nd instant, you are informed that a proof coin is one in which the planchet is highly polished before being placed under the dies, and that it would be impossible for the Mint to undertake to make proof coins of all the Columbian souvenir half-dollars. Therefore, they will simply be like the ordinary silver coins when first turned out from the Mint.
Respectfully yours,
R.E. Preston
Acting Director
NARA-CP, RG 104, entry 235, vol. 65, p. 283.
Proof Columbian Half Dollars:
“My new Columbian Half. Kinda wondering what you might think. (Physics-fan3.14.comment)
No real Columbian half proofs were made.’ However, a bunch were struck from polished dies at the request of the sponsor. Same for the quarter. In both instances the Engraver specifically stated they are not proofs. RWB comment on 01/03/05, Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) Coin Forum.
It is my understanding that none of the major TPG’s (Third Party Grading Companies) will call any Columbian half or Isabella quarter a proof anymore. CaptHenway comment on 01/03/05, Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) Coin Forum.”10
10 Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC), U.S. Coin Forum, Discussion concerning Columbian Proof Half Dollars, 01/03/05.
I attended an authentication seminar in CO during the 1970's taught by Charles Hoskins, and Skip Fazzari (ANACS authenticators) with a visit by Ken Bressett. I learned that in the beginning, ANACS used a lot of outside consultants. Apparently at first, the service had made two or three bad calls but every dealer was so happy to have an authentication service that no retribution was demanded. Then Hoskins was alerted that he had certified a very rare Irish gold coin based on the opinion of a consultant just after the service was opened. I believe they said ANACS had to honor a $ claim from a foreign collector for that error but up until then (Summer of1972, 3,or 74 - I don't remember when I took the class and don't have the certificate), they said ANACS never had to make a payout if it was determined they made a mistake. After that payout, they resolved to check the opinions of any consultant.
In another seminar a few years ago, I learned that NGC got stung very badly for $$$$$$ for taking the opinion of an outside consultant regarding the authenticity of counter stamped gold coins that are called "regulated" gold.
I don't know when ANACS or any of the newer authentication services NGC and PCGS began to guarantee their authentication or grading opinions and offer compensation for errors. That probably leads to a rising number of "No Decisions" on authentication that helps no one. I think the services should have had a disclaimer for any mistakes on grading or authentication right from the start. I'll guarantee they would have still gotten the business. After all, they provide an informed and needed service to the industry. Is it legal to start doing that with older coins grandfathered out?
I forgot, already done by NGC for ancient coins.
@Married2Coins
Please DM me.