Rewriting history

MadMuffin

Recent numismatic evidence suggests that American Indians actually discovered Europe quite some time before the Europeans discovered America. It appears that an Indian chief chose to stay in Europe and eventually made it to be the ruler of the old bishopric of Liege. The coins of this ruler are quite scarce and it appears that his origin was eventually forgotten. He took the European name of Albert.

He never changed his clothing habits, however - and that can be clearly seen when looking at his coins. Too bad, Colombus!



Marcel

1jester

Cool coin, MM!! I've got some old coppers from Liege and I'm fascinated by their coinage. I don't have any silver deniers like this one, however. It's in great shape!

boz

You mean they lied to me!!!!!!!!????????

Askari

I guess since American Indians discovered Europe, they're going to have to decide where to send you "natives" for life on the reservation.

Of course, if those guys always writing about the Templars and the Holy Grail read this, there's likely to be a totally new "conspiracy" theme out there!

Sylvestius

I once watched a TV program on something like that.

It was talking about mummies in Egypt being wrapped and in the fabric used to wrap them was a certain type of drug (probably used as a preservative), that is not known in Egypt, infact the only place it was known was in the Americas. So they suggested that there must have been some trade with the South Americas that was 'frgotten', dunno how true any of this is though.

goldrush00013

<< <i>I once watched a TV program on something like that.

It was talking about mummies in Egypt being wrapped and in the fabric used to wrap them was a certain type of drug (probably used as a preservative), that is not known in Egypt, infact the only place it was known was in the Americas. So they suggested that there must have been some trade with the South Americas that was 'frgotten', dunno how true any of this is though. >>




That is correct. The drug was cocaine from Peru.

Sylvestius

That's the one!

MadMuffin

I would have loved to own the coin - I've got some old Liege coppers myself - but this one got too expensive for me. It's the first time I've seen one of these offered for sale so it probably should be expensive.

Auction link

Marcel

ColinCMR

I've heard of cocaine residue on mummies before too. I'm not sure if the coke was dated though, although it could have been carbon-14 dated.

Some theories suggest trade routes using a south Atlantic circulation current between Brazil and Africa may have been possible. And I think there is evidence of Egyptian excursions out of the Mediterranean, but no suggestions of them returning.

1jester

At a Mayan temple in Copan, I saw some large stone structures like totem poles/tombstones that had elephants carved on them. Also, there was another non-indigenous animal I saw, but I've since forgotten what it was. So to me it seems obvious there was trade between the continents.

Askari

It seems surprising that the native Americans had no notable seafaring tradition themselves.

MadMuffin

Crossing the Atlantic in ancient times would not have been dangerous, but not completely impossible. With the right wind and current it could be done by skilled sailors. Compared to the distances that the polynesians used to travel in canoes in the Pacific it's not that long.

For instance I know that New Zealand was originally colonzied by polynesians from the Cook Islands - that would make a nice trip of some 3000 kilometers in large wooden canoes. How long is the distance between Brazil and the West African coast? Can't be much more than 3000 kilometers.

Marcel

Askari

Yes, but they had a culture of it. The Amerinds did not, as far as we know. Thor Heyerdahl did sail a papyrus-reed boat across, so it can be done ... but I'll bet a lot more died trying than succeeded.

laurentyvan

Seafaring in those times (dangerous and uncertain) would have been motiovated by necessity which in this case was probably absent given the enormous amount of land they had available to them.

I can't believe for a minute that American Indians managed to sail to Europe, given their level of sailing technology and their understanding (or lack of it) of navigation over extremely long distances.

I don't want to demean them but I'd have to see some very strong proof in order to be a believer.

1jester

Well, it does seem hard to believe, but I'm at a loss to otherwise explain the elephant carvings on Mayan ruins. Can anybody proffer any other explanation?

Conder101

When did the mammoths die out? I know that it was after people had come over from Asia. The elephant carvings could possibly have been those of an animal described in their handed down ancient myths and based on the mammoths..

1jester

I thought about that too, Conder. But do woolly mammoths have long trunks like elephants? These animals looked exactly like elephants, including tusks distinctly different from those of mammoths.

Conder101

Yes they do..

I don't know if there were other species or regional variations that my have had less hair, but we are probably also talking about animals depicted from stories passed down verbally for generations. The descriptions of the trunk would probably remain but that of the hair could easily have been lost to time.

PuddlePirate

It is far more probable that the seafaring peoples visited the america's more often than current archaeological myth cares to admit. There are known Viking settlements in Newfoundland and Eastern Canada. Stone anchors have been found at Boston Harbor and Sandy Hook. A lot of Tin was mined in the Great Lakes area and the Phoenicians who were superb seafarers are factually known to have mapped all of African and the European Coastlines, The British islands, Greenland and Newfoundland.

Phoenician sailors out of Carthage would have been intimately familar with elephants and could easily have talked of them to people they traded with. Trade Routes for Spices and Tobacco were feircely protected and some peices of Lapis Lazuli a stone so prized by the Egyptians do not appear to have an "african" source, so possible trade from the America's is more than possible.

On the Western Coast of the USA and Canada there is a consistent "myth" of an Asian fleet, often thought to be of Mongolian origin that landed in the Seattle/Vancouver area. There are many Mongolian and Chinese coins that were sewn onto the Tlingit Indians war vests. The Tlingit's are known to have warred and also traded with the Maya and Inca people's of South America. Tlingit history is fascinating yet it is often ignored because it is a "indian tribal" history and can be therefore be conviently ce classified as myth.

Alot more happened in the "Pre-Columbus" America's than is readily admitted to by modern scholars. When you consider the deeply entrenched mentality of modern archealogy, things that don't fit into preconcieved time lines and thought patterns are just dismissed. I recall some pictures my parents showed me of ruins in mexico where to my "untrained" eye, obvious "african" and "aryian" facial profiles were carved onto temples and stele long before the Spaniards showed up to slaughter and enslave the S. American Indian Cultures for gold, emeralds and slaves.

So if there are African Elephants on Aztec/Maya ruins you can accept what modern scholars like to say or you can realize that "pre-history" trade actually occurred on a fairly consistent basis between the continents.

I love this history stuff!